Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[FireMage]

Isn't that why you've been called out for not clearing all Ultimates on multiple jobs on release? I agree, you should not be speaking.

Hypocrisy, thy name is Mithron. I love how you've tried to claim I use logical fallacies, then proceed to ad hominem. And not even well at that since it was inaccurate. Try better

[Mithron]

Hypocrisy, thy name is Mithron. I love how you've tried to claim I use logical fallacies, then proceed to ad hominem. And not even well at that since it was inaccurate. Try better

I don't think you shouldn't speak because you're casual, I think you shouldn't speak because you're always wrong. Just giving you a taste of your own logical fallacies.

You never explained in great detail why DNC is harder than MCH. "Closed position changes" and "react to RNG" are not harder than MCH, so explain more.

[Azuri]

I don't think you shouldn't speak because you're casual, I think you shouldn't speak because you're always wrong. Just giving you a taste of your own logical fallacies.

You never explained in great detail why DNC is harder than MCH. "Closed position changes" and "react to RNG" are not harder than MCH, so explain more.

I mean, the whole "FireMage is always trolling and wrong" thing is funny, sure, but in this case he is quite correct indeed. Just based on current fflogs statistics the Δ between 5th and 95th percentiles for the jobs are:

MCH: 9791 - 7968 = 1823 DPS (the lowest across all jobs).
DNC: 10205 - 8142 = 2063 DPS.
and just for funsies since there seems to be a complete agreement on how BLM is the gigabrain job in this thread: 10604 - 8064 = 2540 DPS (the highest across all jobs).

More than that, MCH has significantly lower spread between 50th and 95th percentiles compared to other jobs. In short, there is a single objectively correct way to play MCH - the entire rotation is a math equation and can be solved for a single correct answer. You just press the buttons in the exact order. It is likely possible to teach a talented monkey to execute. Similar to SMN, MCH optimization isn't hard, it simply has none. The only thing that separates about top 20% of all MCHs is damage variance, crit luck and gear.

Now, DNC has undeniably lost some of ShB complexity. Melee procs are gone, Flourish gives unique procs and Esprit generation from your GCDs is now static. But at the same time, addition of Tillana and especially 6.08 changes have (and I'm willing to bet absolutely unitentionally by SE) created a very curious case of 3.5 Standard Step rotation since SS is now weaker than every other GCD except the basic combo. Technical windows now require a bit of setup and thinking on the fly in regards to pooling procs and Esprit and actively making a decision to forego SS in a given window. It's not very complex, no, but it is definitely more variable than anything MCH can ever offer.

[SaberMaxwell]

Name me one job that doesn't end up needing to plan multiple sometimes several GCDs ahead to make sure that things go smooth. I'm sure "you're not screwing up rdm" sitting there green parsing and wondering why while fleche clips a whole two more gcds because you didn't use acceleration right, followed by poorly planned and poorly executed 2 minute bursts because you emboldened too early and manafied too late. Maybe when you check your uptime percent later you'll even have an answer to why experienced RDM are getting two to three more melee combos over the fight than you got.

I get it, I get the argument and I agree but can we stop pretending RDM is somehow uniquely braindead among the current roster?

[CKNovel]

Name me one job that doesn't end up needing to plan multiple sometimes several GCDs ahead to make sure that things go smooth. I'm sure "you're not screwing up rdm" sitting there green parsing and wondering why while fleche clips a whole two more gcds because you didn't use acceleration right, followed by poorly planned and poorly executed 2 minute bursts because you emboldened too early and manafied too late. Maybe when you check your uptime percent later you'll even have an answer to why experienced RDM are getting two to three more melee combos over the fight than you got.

I get it, I get the argument and I agree but can we stop pretending RDM is somehow uniquely braindead among the current roster?

I wasn't quite clear, my bad on this one.
What I meant was that each job has their small difficulties.

My point wasn't to say that RDM is braindead, but that it's not complex either.

[Urielparadox]

I wasn't quite clear, my bad on this one.
What I meant was that each job has their small difficulties.

My point wasn't to say that RDM is braindead, but that it's not complex either.

If this were true rdm would have a low damage spread, it in fact has a large one with lower prases being dramatically lower than high, and separating colors is clearly skill, and not just crit/dh/luck, looks at sam. This is also why rdm is currently rated low in damage, than brd or smn, while having the same potential damage. Rdm constantly doing math and evaluating your next movement, never missing or loosing a cast, and making sure to balance your gauges at the high end not the low end. When to stack acceleration and quick cast so u don't get down time. Red mage floor damage is easy to hit yes. Just like every jobs floor damage is easy to hit. Their max damage is much more difficult than samurai, reaper, dragoon or summoner. rdm just gets a lower pay out for maxing their damage out while the other jobs have higher damage ceilings, and much easier rotations. Yes I have secondary all those jobs at recent times trying to find one that clicks but they are all so simple and boring and the exact same. Drg defiantly has a higher skill cap than samurai, but coming from rdm and the higher amount of ogcd management is quite easy, considering most those jobs you rarely even have to double weave to maintain damage, yes they are much easier. They give you longer to plan your next move, and their rotation isn't effected by proc luck requiring constant adjustment, changes in decisions and inconstant timer locations in fights. If you aren't aware because of the quick cast rdm has 2 time cycles it can be part of. Front of cast cycle, end of cast cycle if your on the wrong time cycle for the wrong mechanic, going into your burst phase, ect you can not complete your cast, or a weaker skill end up under burst, so managing your instacast, jolts, procs, acceleration, and swift cast to make sure you end up in the right cast time cycle, to complete the cast you have to do during the mechanics and then adjust your cycle and make sure it aligned for the next mechanic. None of that level of thought goes into any movement a drg, sam, or reaper have to make they just follow a static flow.

[Ransu]

Name me one job that doesn't end up needing to plan multiple sometimes several GCDs ahead to make sure that things go smooth. I'm sure "you're not screwing up rdm" sitting there green parsing and wondering why while fleche clips a whole two more gcds because you didn't use acceleration right, followed by poorly planned and poorly executed 2 minute bursts because you emboldened too early and manafied too late. Maybe when you check your uptime percent later you'll even have an answer to why experienced RDM are getting two to three more melee combos over the fight than you got.

I get it, I get the argument and I agree but can we stop pretending RDM is somehow uniquely braindead among the current roster?

Samurai requires no planning. Its loop is set in stone and P3S is about the only fight that interrupts its loop when the boss becomes un-targatable. For the spread/stack mechanic making the downtime longer than the necessary filler for the loop. Its one of the main reasons I've always liked SAM because of its loop rotation. Its probably why I like BLM too, though they actually require some planning for leylines and its much more rewarding to play than SAM atm.

Realistically none of the bosses have any actual downtime anymore so none of the melee really require any major changes to their rotations. At most you have to plan for some drift and maybe slightly alter an opener depending on what the boss does. A handful of jobs openers change slightly depending on what boss you're fighting making the countdown timers needing to be different, but realistically outside of BLM the "plan several GCD's ahead" idea is not a thing. RDM has to plan things to some degree because its ironically less mobile than BLM at times, but overall they still have a bit more freedom than BLM and are not locked down to a strict window like BLM is with enochian.

BLM, NIN, and to a point DRG because of how busy its oGCD's can be are imo the only jobs that require you to pay close attention to what you're doing. The rest of the jobs in the game really don't take much of a thought process and you can parse high on all of them while being asleep. If this was still HW and to a point SB I wouldn't be making this argument, but since ShB and into EW all the of the jobs have become relatively simple. So ya, I keep to the point that balancing around "difficulty" of a job is beyond stupid.

I'm merely stating what proper balance would be, which is something that would benefit basically everyone

Except for MCH and SMN because your idea of balance would bury them to the point that they may as well not exist.

[FireMage]

Except for MCH and SMN because your idea of balance would bury them to the point that they may as well not exist.

Imagine still claiming this when MCH still exists now AND the gap between it and DNC/BRD would be smaller with proper balance. And SMN would still be flocked to just on flavor alone. Just stop

[Ransu]

Imagine still claiming this when MCH still exists now AND the gap between it and DNC/BRD would be smaller with proper balance. And SMN would still be flocked to just on flavor alone. Just stop

Imagine not realizing that MCH right now is outright being blocked from the majority of PF's.

[SaberMaxwell]

I shouldn't snap either, I'm sorry. I agree with you 100%, and I believe you and I were of the same accord about jobs being easy until the point of optimization.

I should maybe just step away from this thread while FireMage is turning this into a pointless measuring contest between jobs.