Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Dogempire]

I already have, multiple times. Maybe you should actually read

There were facts in the posts you've made?

[Ransu]

List the facts. Show the facts. Divulge me with your facts, oh wise one.

He doesn't have any lol. I don't think he's trolling, but he's definitely misinformed.

[FireMage]

He doesn't have any lol. I don't think he's trolling, but he's definitely misinformed.

I'm not remotely misinformed on the matter though. Your need to insult shows your stance is shaky

[Donoman]

Wild, someone who barely touches the raid content in this game is offering his insight on a job he doesn't play. Go figure. MCH is easier, btw.

Ok

The sheer irony. Also imagine actually saying a ranged Job with no casts lacks mobility, guf-faw

I was talking about in comparison to Dancer and Bard but whatever. 4/10 for keeping things interesting at first.

[NightHour]

MCH shouldn't be doing as much damage as a RDM

No, MCH should be ahead of RDM by a significant margin, simply due to kit design and gameplay.


RDM brings Embolden, Magick Barrier, Verraise and Vercure to a group, what does MCH bring? Tactician.... which is just a renamed Troubador / Shield Samba.


In my opinion, Red Mage isn't taxed enough for all the tools it provides.

[CKNovel]

List the facts. Show the facts. Divulge me with your facts, oh wise one.

I will list you the facts:
"It's a fact because I said so"

At this point if I knew nothing of RDM and SMN, I would be convinced SMN is harder.
RDM cannot be more basic. Fills black and white gauge up to 50, spend them on special combo and pay attention to Flèche and Contre Sixte + your dash-in/dash-out.
You have acceleration for mobility, Embolden for raidbuff and Manafication to ensure a special combo within raidbuffs.

The only possible hard thing about RDM would be optimization but that's every jobs problem.

[Rithy255]

almost like different things are harder for different people.

I consider Bard and Machinist harder, but RDM could be harder on learning a fight due to less mobility, even if rdm has a backflip/gapcloser and acceleration it doesn't really compare to phys ranged, RDM still has to deal with both melee range and cast times.

That being said in theory I think if you removed raise and other utility from red mage it should be slighty higher in total damage slightly, but the fact it's got utility ontop of that means it's in a good spot.

Difficulty shouldn't really matter too much, but bard/mach are generally more "difficult" from a rotational standpoint, RDM is more difficult depending on the fight design.

[Aurora428]

No, MCH should be ahead of RDM by a significant margin, simply due to kit design and gameplay.


RDM brings Embolden, Magick Barrier, Verraise and Vercure to a group, what does MCH bring? Tactician.... which is just a renamed Troubador / Shield Samba.


In my opinion, Red Mage isn't taxed enough for all the tools it provides.

It IS taxed too much, all ranged are. Separating RDM out in either direction is not the way to go here.

Just because someone had a bad take about RDM needing to be better than everyone else doesn't mean it's not in an equally dire position. It just means that ALL ranged, including RDM and BLM need very large buffs.


This conversation won't go anywhere unless the goal is for all DPS, ranged physical/magical/melee to be equally valuable. The value of utility or mobility should be equal to the DPS lost if they are taking that route. If people have a preference for immobile jobs that bring more damage, the damage gap is too high. The reality here is that the difference between ranged and melee needs to be relatively small.

If the gap is large enough that people are locking the fourth DPS slot to a particular role, the gap is too high. It is not okay that the balance of the game is reliant on comp locking.

I think people are hugely exaggerating the effects of ranged just being very slightly behind melee as opposed to 10% worse. Doing 1.5-2% more damage is plenty of a reward to play melee, especially considering just how close enrage is on the last floor week 1. If your team is 500 behind the check, a job switch making up 200 of that difference is not small.

It's easy to say a gap of 7% or 5% or 10% is not that big, but when you look at is as "the amount of damage that groups are generally behind on enrage" which is like 500-1300, those differences are absolutely massive balance discrepancies.

Honestly I think balancing out the taxes is pointless if the goal isn't to make the comp melee/prange/caster/flex. Without that goal in mind, "tax" doesn't really matter.

[Rithy255]

I think "1%" of all jobs away from each other sentiment is pretty awful.
Generally I'd say "3-4%" is good, at least a good start and a good goal for future balance, I don't think a massive difference like 10% should exist.

With Jobs such as RDM you can point to raise/utility for a reason why it should be lower then BLM, obviously the current gap might be too much, BLM is too low in the first place.

With jobs such as Mch, you can't really say "oh yeah mch has x utility" because it has nothing other then something that all ranged has (Dancer gets a boat load of healing utilites), you can't point to it's mobility over dancer or even bard because they have better mobility, You can argue "ease" but generally DNC is considered very easy, while mch is a bit more difficult (from what most people say). You can't point to any reason why mch is really worse then the other ranged DPS, because theirs zero room for any sort of reason.

Melee/ranged/caster tax, generally forgets that Black mage is generally a lot harder to move and use compared to a melee in current fights, it also is pretty bad that they'd make fights more melee friendly but not consider how much it would effect ranged, I mean SHB people I remember were arguing that ranged tax was pretty weird, but it wasn't that vocal, now phys ranged has even less reason to be so highly "taxed" .

[FireMage]

No, MCH should be ahead of RDM by a significant margin, simply due to kit design and gameplay.


RDM brings Embolden, Magick Barrier, Verraise and Vercure to a group, what does MCH bring? Tactician.... which is just a renamed Troubador / Shield Samba.


In my opinion, Red Mage isn't taxed enough for all the tools it provides.

Imagine actually typing out Vercure like it matters. And Embolden is merely RDM damage, and Verraise is worthless in an optimal setting...so what...Barrier? Yeah not a compelling case especially when RDM is factually harder than MCH. Try again