Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Semirhage]

Not balancing on difficulty does nothing but punish those that excel at higher complexity Jobs

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "here's why this job I don't play deserves to be worse than mine in every single way" yak yak yak yak.

I've heard it a hundred times in the healer forums, it's just as stupid here.

Also melee aren't "complex". If anything, modern encounter design makes positionals and uptime a breeze. What they currently (and have always) heavily forced on players is movement. Why, then, given this design paradigm, are the "hardest to play/most rewarded" jobs not the casters then? Since their explicit weakness is needing to remain immobile for stretches of time?

[FireMage]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "here's why this job I don't play deserves to be worse than mine in every single way" yak yak yak yak.

I've heard it a hundred times in the healer forums, it's just as stupid here.

Also melee aren't "complex". If anything, modern encounter design makes positionals and uptime a breeze. What they currently (and have always) heavily forced on players is movement. Why, then, given this design paradigm, are the "hardest to play/most rewarded" jobs not the casters then? Since their explicit weakness is needing to remain immobile for stretches of time?

It's not stupid at all, it's how proper balance works. It's why AST deserves the top spot, why DRK does for tanks. Also one of the casters, BLM deserves to be top DPS due to its design. However SMN has the easiest rotation of all the DPS, and almost complete mobility. Movement does factor into this, when did I say it didn't?

[Rithy255]

It's not stupid at all, it's how proper balance works. It's why AST deserves the top spot, why DRK does for tanks. Also one of the casters, BLM deserves to be top DPS due to its design. However SMN has the easiest rotation of all the DPS, and almost complete mobility. Movement does factor into this, when did I say it didn't?

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

Why are you trying to balance on difficulty when you also don't know what you're talking about in terms of what makes a job difficult? does "busy = Difficult" to you? The fact that melee dps are so far ahead of everyone when the fights are more tailored to you, when your rotations are pretty simple on samurai and Reaper compared to a lot of other jobs.

I don't think it's a bad thing to reward a job slightly but again where do we draw the line, who asked for a certain job to be so easy? Why should some jobs be punished so much for being considered easier, the only thing you've shown is bias towards what you find more difficult, because people find a lot of different jobs more difficult then what you find difficult, theirs no factual statement on difficulty.

[FireMage]

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

Why are you trying to balance on difficulty when you also don't know what you're talking about in terms of what makes a job difficult? does "busy = Difficult" to you? The fact that melee dps are so far ahead of everyone when the fights are more tailored to you, when your rotations are pretty simple on samurai and Reaper compared to a lot of other jobs.

I don't think it's a bad thing to reward a job slightly but again where do we draw the line, who asked for a certain job to be so easy? Why should some jobs be punished so much for being considered easier, the only thing you've shown is bias towards what you find more difficult, because people find a lot of different jobs more difficult then what you find difficult, theirs no factual statement on difficulty.

They would be slight. Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING I've been saying? The gap between the DPS is over 10% from the top to the bottom. It's over 1300 DPS right now, proper balance would keep the ceiling where it is, move BLM to be said ceiling and then bring the others to within ~500 DPS of it. Proper balance has the answers, I'm just the messenger

[Rithy255]

They would be slight. Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING I've been saying? The gap between the DPS is over 10% from the top to the bottom. It's over 1300 DPS right now, proper balance would keep the ceiling where it is, move BLM to be said ceiling and then bring the others to within ~500 DPS of it. Proper balance has the answers, I'm just the messenger

Well I remember you saying every ranged job is easier then every melee job, I don't take issue with slightly rewarding Jobs that are "harder" but the issue we have is everyone finds difficulty subjective so it would be a hard to even determine with a lot of jobs, I don't think your ideal on what makes a job difficult or not is anymore consistent then mine or any other player.

I guess jobs such as >Reaper, Samurai, Dancer and Summoner are generally look towards being easier, but again who asked for summoner to be made so much more easier why shouldn't summoner get some more complexity inside of it's kit instead of punishing players for playing it, theirs a lot of issues balancing with difficulty as a reward, 5% would be pushing it and players would generally be unsatisfied with their mains still not performing well because it's easy, I 100% agree on black mage being the most high damage job as theirs more factors then "rotational" difficulty at play for BLM, but most jobs once you've played it for a while and got it down with muscle memory, the difficulty on it becomes less of a factor.

I don't think anyone disagrees that 1300 is way too much and it's fine to have a small skill ceiling for jobs such as Black Mage.

[Aikaal]

Snip

I'd say there's no value trying to save this one. FireMage is a one trick RDM player with the arrogance that he apparently knows all the job in savage. His subjective experience is clearly what the entire player base feels in his eyes. There's no way... everybody in the OF is right and him, the sole player in his corner, could be wrong.

He doesn't even know which role his RDM is and who he should competes against x__x

[FireMage]

I'd say there's no value trying to save this one. FireMage is a one trick RDM player with the arrogance that he apparently knows all the job in savage. His subjective experience is clearly what the entire player base feels in his eyes. There's no way... everybody in the OF is right and him, the sole player in his corner, could be wrong.

He doesn't even know which role his RDM is and who he should competes against x__x

Ad hominem, cute

[Housinginneed]

Well given it's a fact I don't need anything else

Not sure at which international convention they decided the formula [difficulty = more damage in mmo = balance] but, sure if you say that design philosophy is somehow "fact" then okay, I can't help you.

There isn't any point debating this guy because this guy is playing FFXIV the MOBA, while the rest of us are playing FFXIV the mmo. He wants the game to be balanced like a competitive e-sport game and can't see it any other way since this is probably his first mmo.

[MagiusNecros]

Thing I don't understand about devs is their whole job difficulty equals higher damage explanation when as stated that in the long and short of it DRK isn't that hard and does top dmg while you have Paladin doing more work but substantially less damage.

In another scenario you have classes like Monk(Dragon Kick go brr) and Samurai which I feel are also not hard but do the most damage as opposed classes like MCH that do 4x the work for half the damage a free style Samurai puts out.

And I personally feel that DRG is harder then Reaper and I think DRG does lower damage?

But I feel the biggest distinction in balance is around the DPS of casters where there is a huge gap between BLM and SMN/RDM due to the both of them having Raise.

Especially since Endwalker combat encounters have huge hitboxes across the board giving Melee full uptime as opposed to casters and you often have a staggering difference in output between the 2. Often being a 10% DPS difference for no reason.

So you really have 2 big takeaways here. That Caster balance is fucked and Tank balance is bad when you can play an amazing PLD/WAR but lose to a mediocre DRK/GNB because they put out 300-500 extra DPS just by existing.

And when it comes to RDM you only do damage when you do your Resolution Combo and if it crits. Otherwise it's wet noodles all the time. And your Melee Combo is pretty weak and the attacks you use to build it up ironically are stronger. I'd rather they just make it build Mana and you as a Red Mage decide whether or not you should be casting or be in Melee range and then you burst. Burst early burst often.

SMN has a rather restrictive kit devoid of choice with clunky Necromancer themed attacks in Energy Drain/Fester/Painflare/Ruin 4. Where you are a melee caster that spams Ruin and uses Summons on CD. If you have choice it's to delay a burst and withhold damage for a raid buff window. And if you want the most out of Festerflare you have to hold your charges for 2 minutes for 2 Ruin 4's and 4 Aetherflow actions which can be rather clunky.

If BLM can do it's thing and turret it's miles ahead of the other 2.

My only comment on MCH is it needs more ways to charge battery more often and to do some skill adjustments on stuff like Flamethrower and Wildfire along with some potency increases that put it up there with the melees. It doesn't need any RDPS. Just make it do a lot of damage.

Classes with large RDPS need to do shit damage like Dancer/Bard do since most of their damage come their innate party/raid utility actions.

[CKNovel]

This is unfortunately at the current "balance" 100% factually incorrect currently. You can currently do 3x melee partys and do vastly more damage than having 1 caster in the party. That is the major current issue. While fire mage has a lot wrong, you are extremely incorrect on this.

Let's clear up two points:

My intend was to bring up and explain the purpose of party bonus.
The state of the current balance doesn't change the purpose of party bonus.
Least, let's not forget party bonus also brings vitality and mind, both increases the party survival.

I would like you to back up your sources
I know for sure that theorycraft happened to replace rangeds with melees, but I've never seen it in practice, let alone actual proof the 1% is not worth a caster/range.
Currently, the fastest kills with 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS always includes at least one of the 3 roles.
The only non-standard teams often includes a 5th DPS instead of a healer.

This is why I'm doubting your claims, would you kindly back-up your claim?
If you could also bring the theorycraft, I would be grateful!

You think dark knight is the hardest tank? yeah no "lots of buttons" and spamming 1, 2, 3 isn't hard, Paladin and Gunbreaker are generally considered more difficult.

I've played Dark Knight and Gunbreaker this expansion.
I can confirm that DRK and GNB aren't hard to play at a level good enough to claim ultimate and week 1 clears.

PLD is much more difficult to play on its offensive rotation but also on management of defensive cooldowns.