Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Avoidy]

It's always a RDM main on the forums calling other jobs too easy and then downplaying their own utility because they want to have a bad-faith argument about why them doing more damage than smn, and providing more utility than smn, is balanced while the current situation isn't. Protip: If the devs ever went full tilt and only balanced around ease of play, you'd still be dead last because these out of touch devs would probably say some bullshit like "yOu cAn rEs a LoT sO uR EaSy." I swear Barbariccia Extreme broke some people, and then the P8 door boss really drove home the emotional damage because wow, shock, week 1 tryhard groups wanted as much damage as they could get. You picked the highest utility caster job in the game and now you're mad that it's not pumping damage as well. Get a grip. Maybe RDM could use some love, but the moment its damage is even equal to SMN's, that's when SMN's viability goes out the window because now it's just a worse RDM in every single way. Think about it for like two seconds.

[Mithron]

You picked the highest utility caster job in the game and now you're mad that it's not pumping damage as well. Get a grip. Maybe RDM could use some love, but the moment its damage is even equal to SMN's, that's when SMN's viability goes out the window because now it's just a worse RDM in every single way. Think about it for like two seconds.

The argument here though is Searing Light vs. Embolden, then. "Utility" like raises shouldn't tax rDPS, only damage buffs, and every job should be within 1% rDPS of each other, otherwise there's no reason to ever bring low rDPS jobs. SAM has no raid buffs yet still is top rDPS. I think RDM should be below SMN but only slightly, because Embolden should be better than Searing Light for buffing damage.

[Avoidy]

I think RDM should be below SMN but only slightly, because Embolden should be better than Searing Light for buffing damage.

This is pretty much how I feel as well. RDM also gets a barrier that shields the group against magic damage (i.e. raidwides), while SMN gets nothing like this unless you count addle, which every caster gets as a role action anyway. I'm not sure why you aren't including this under utility, but I do and so do most people when they talk about this kind of thing.

Basically, I'm just tired. I agree that RDM could use some love, but the people talking about doing more dps than smn "bcuz its ez" clearly just want their job to be on top and don't actually care about a balanced game.

[Rithy255]

This is pretty much how I feel as well. RDM also gets a barrier that shields the group against magic damage (i.e. raidwides), while SMN gets nothing like this unless you count addle, which every caster gets as a role action anyway. I'm not sure why you aren't including this under utility, but I do and so do most people when they talk about this kind of thing.

Basically, I'm just tired. I agree that RDM could use some love, but the people talking about doing more dps than smn "bcuz its ez" clearly just want their job to be on top and don't actually care about a balanced game.

Summoner gets way more mobility, a Party regen and a strong targeted party member regen, I think that more then makes up for magick barrier personally, I generally think they should let rdm be ahead of summoner or you could buff its utility enough to justify being behind Summoner.

[Ivtrix]

This is pretty much how I feel as well. RDM also gets a barrier that shields the group against magic damage (i.e. raidwides), while SMN gets nothing like this unless you count addle, which every caster gets as a role action anyway. I'm not sure why you aren't including this under utility, but I do and so do most people when they talk about this kind of thing.

Basically, I'm just tired. I agree that RDM could use some love, but the people talking about doing more dps than smn "bcuz its ez" clearly just want their job to be on top and don't actually care about a balanced game.

It also depends how much you value a group utility like magic barrier vs personal utility. Shade shift and manaward and SMN shield are all very useful utilities, its just they are personal use. Obviously a group utility has the edge, but anyone who has a personal utility gets to theoretically double dip.

[FireMage]

I'm a PLD main, so yes my job was being cut off from PF (as was RDM and MCH), and RDM is one of my favorite DPS to play too as I love its playstyle. The point of bringing RDM is that it's the same total DPS as every other job, as because it does less personal damage (currently the case), it makes up for it by buffing everyone else. Why bring a BRD or a DNC currently to Savage? Because while they do low personal damage, they make up for it in raid damage buffs. That's the point I'm making here and something you don't seem to understand. If every job is close to equal in total DPS contribution, then that means buffs like Mug, Embolden, Technical Finish, etc. are included and expected for the job, making every job viable in Savage raids. While RDM may do lower personal damage, they make up for it by buffing everyone else through Embolden (and any other additional buffs they need). You can keep your same rotation, just make Embolden's numbers bigger and perhaps their personal DPS as well if that's what's necessary. I just don't think RDM should do as much personal damage as most other jobs because it's against their core job identity (in my opinion), and if they did, then their total contribution would be too high and OP (like NIN currently is, which I also love NIN because it's meant to be more of a support DPS).

So to summarize: no one is saying nerf RDM. They're already among the bottom. What I'm saying is they should be near the bottom, but not greater than 1% difference, and most of their contribution of DPS should be similar to that of a BRD's or DNC's: through buffing others. They don't have to change their current playstyle of casting and melee combo, you can keep that. Just increase Embolden if necessary, and/or their personal DPS if that's necessary to get them where they need to be.

The differences in total DPS now are way too high, far more than 1%, which is what has caused this schism and PF blocking. The root cause of this schism are both fight design (too melee friendly) and poor job balance. Both need to be addressed, and it is likely a lot of the lower rDPS jobs (like RDM and MCH) will need both buffs in their raid damage buffs and personal DPS to be brought to about 1% difference in each other.

RDM shouldn't be at the bottom, MCH and SMN should. RDM should be in the middle of the pack, along with RPR. The gap should be ~5%, not 1% and definitely not the ~11% we have now. You just don't understand how balance works

[Avoidy]

Summoner gets a Party regen and a strong targeted party member regen, I think that more then makes up for magick barrier personally,

No it doesn't, because the Phoenix regen isn't an on-demand heal over time. You get it when you summon Phoenix, which you'd do as soon as it's available because that's how your rotation flows on SMN, not because of outgoing party damage. Magick Barrier is on demand damage mitigation that you can plan for and use whenever you want as long as it's not on CD. A vast majority of the time when I use phoenix, its party heal goes out to a group that's already topped off because phoenix didn't line up with any outgoing party damage and holding phoenix excessively to wait for damage to occur is wildly sub-optimal and pointless. If magicked barrier were like smn regen, you'd be forced to use it the second it came off cd, whether there was damage incoming or not. You would have zero actual agency over when it went out, and most of the time it would accomplish nothing.

This comparison is honestly so inaccurate, and it's what I meant by bad faith arguments earlier. Even disregarding the difference between raw mitigation and healing over time, just the fact that MB can be used on demand makes it so much better.

[Arguscbf]

Well the thing is if you gave buffs to RDM damage buffs or gave them more damage buffs or something... it would kind of go without saying that it would make up for those damage differences and you wouldn't meet enrage...
I like RDM because its a spell caster with a sword but I also like it's more of a "support DPS" just because you want it to be a selfish dps or have the same support options as current doesn't mean everyone does, personally i think RDM other then needing a damage buff is fine as it is, I really like the job.

Should we just have every job be pure damage dealers, but also complain about "job diversity"? I feel like giving jobs support options is generally what can make certain jobs feel more fun and different to other jobs, this also makes jobs such as Black Mage tend to stand out more as a "pure damage dealer" which I personally like.

I know what you're saying. Everyone says how Verraise is a great utility but the thing is a huge DPS loss AND delay the melee combo since we don't get white/black mana. Imo RDM should do more dmg than SMN not because of rotation complexity but because Verraise is SO punishing for a utility and should be compensated for DPS loss. SMN has an insta res every 60s if you spare Swiftcast for it AND it's way more mobile AND don't have to stay melee range to use certain skills(besides Ifrit's dash) AND have personal shield. RDM is the squishiest and the least mobile caster.

[Avoidy]

I know what you're saying. Everyone says how Verraise is a great utility but the thing is a huge DPS loss AND delay the melee combo since we don't get white/black mana. Imo RDM should do more dmg than SMN not because of rotation complexity but because Verraise is SO punishing for a utility and should be compensated for DPS loss. SMN has an insta res every 60s if you spare Swiftcast for it AND it's way more mobile AND don't have to stay melee range to use certain skills(besides Ifrit's dash) AND have personal shield. RDM is the squishiest and the least mobile caster.

Your argument seems to boil down to "because RDM can res a lot, it deserves to do more dps."
If this became a thing, what reason would SMN even have to exist. Furthermore, how would you account for moments where you don't have to res at all?

Also most SMNs use swiftcast in their rotation, so holding it to "maybe" res someone later is a dps loss. Not holding it and slowressing is also an obvious dps loss. You mentioned damage losses for rdm but forgot that SMNs have tradeoffs and basically get 1 real swiftres at their disposal. You also mention not having to be in melee range, and then you immediately bring up smn's forced melee gap closer. Like, I'm not gonna defend smn as a complex job, but come on. Your own post contradicts itself.

[Ivtrix]

Your argument seems to boil down to "because RDM can res a lot, it deserves to do more dps."
If this became a thing, what reason would SMN even have to exist.

Why are you concerned with handcuffing SMN and RDM? Can we not buff both dps? Everyone not melee across the board needs a bump up.


Additionally, traditionally people play the job they are most comfortable on. Its why UCOB was cleared with a DRK despite the perception of it being a weak tank at the time. When asked the player responded with "well i just really like DRK"

High end raiders generally only swap if the checks are too tight, as seen this tier. So if in a theoretical RDM is buffed to do more damage than SMN, people will still continue to play SMN because they enjoy it.