Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[Mithron]

Don't feed the troll guys.

Anyway, that's an interresting idea, some buffs would need to be adjusted or roles moved around (RDM's one has been mentionned) but I think that this, mixed with a change on raidbuff cooldowns to move away from the rigid 2 minutes could do a lot of good for the game.

Right, I think the idea of RDM being low personal DPS but tons of raid buffs is core identity and thematic to the job. Even in FF1, RDM's main purpose was to buff your melee with Haste and Temper while providing small personal damage themselves and having backup heals. They were also very good at cleaning up trash efficiently as their lower stats/spells didn't matter as much on trash. So, they'd kill the trash nicely, then in harder fights focused more on support. That's job identity for RDM to me, given they're not the Enspeller spellblade Mystic Knight type like they sort of had in FF11, so I think emphasizing more on Embolden and other raid damage buffs is what they need. In FF3, you only used them early game to clear a few magic only dungeons then swapped off as fast as possible, and in FF5 you only used them to learn Doublecast on your other real magic using jobs. They've never really been known to be monster powerhouses of personal damage, so placing them just above BRD and DNC makes sense. I love RDM, and I love playing RDM that way.

[Arguscbf]

Right, I think the idea of RDM being low personal DPS but tons of raid buffs is core identity and thematic to the job. Even in FF1, RDM's main purpose was to buff your melee with Haste and Temper while providing small personal damage themselves and having backup heals. They were also very good at cleaning up trash efficiently as their lower stats/spells didn't matter as much on trash. So, they'd kill the trash nicely, then in harder fights focused more on support. That's job identity for RDM to me, given they're not the Enspeller spellblade Mystic Knight type like they sort of had in FF11, so I think emphasizing more on Embolden and other raid damage buffs is what they need. In FF3, you only used them early game to clear a few magic only dungeons then swapped off as fast as possible, and in FF5 you only used them to learn Doublecast on your other real magic using jobs. They've never really been known to be monster powerhouses of personal damage, so placing them just above BRD and DNC makes sense. I love RDM, and I love playing RDM that way.

I don't care about FFXI. This is FFXIV where DAMAGE matters. I find extremely absurd you saying RDM has tons of raid buffs. RDM has only two buffs which is Embolden(offense) and Magick Barrier(defense). PERIOD. MNK has the same quantity of buffs which is Mantra(defense) and Brotherhood(offense). "Ohhh but RDM has Verraise" Verraise isnt an utility at all because it's a DPS loss and RDM is a DPS! I agree Verraise is great for progging but that's only it because for a clear party is useless where you need that DPS check and sometimes need all players alive to resolve some mechs. It just doesn't make any sense RDM doing less dmg than SMN even when not using Verraise.

[Mithron]

I don't care about FFXI. This is FFXIV where DAMAGE matters. I find extremely absurd you saying RDM has tons of raid buffs. RDM has only two buffs which is Embolden(offense) and Magick Barrier(defense). PERIOD. MNK has the same quantity of buffs which is Mantra(defense) and Brotherhood(offense). "Ohhh but RDM has Verraise" Verraise isnt an utility at all because it's a DPS loss and RDM is a DPS! I agree Verraise is great for progging but that's only it because for a clear party is useless where you need that DPS check and sometimes need all players alive to resolve some mechs. It just doesn't make any sense RDM doing less dmg than SMN even when not using Verraise.

I'm not saying RDM DOES have tons of raid damage buffs. I'm saying they should. I don't know how Embolden compares to Searing Light, but it should be much better while SMN and RDM have very close rDPS but SMN has better aDPS. That way, all DPS contribute overall to total damage the same, because if RDM's support DPS should be better than SMN's, they even out in personal DPS. The core identity of RDM should be "I play RDM with the intention of being a support DPS" similar to BRD and DNC.

I do not believe defensive and mitigation utility should affect DPS as DPS jobs. Leave that for the tanks.

[Arguscbf]

I'm not saying RDM DOES have tons of raid damage buffs. I'm saying they should. I don't know how Embolden compares to Searing Light, but it should be much better while SMN and RDM have very close rDPS but SMN has better aDPS. That way, all DPS contribute overall to total damage the same, because if RDM's support DPS should be better than SMN's, they even out in personal DPS. The core identity of RDM should be "I play RDM with the intention of being a support DPS" similar to BRD and DNC.

I do not believe defensive and mitigation utility should affect DPS as DPS jobs. Leave that for the tanks.

I main RDM because i like its gameplay and not because it's a "support DPS"!
RDM is a DPS! If they add tons of buffs to it they'll lower its dps even more so what's the point of bringing a RDM to run Savage if you have an enrage timer due to DPS check? Easier said than done. It's not your job that is being cut off from PF...

[Rithy255]

I main RDM because i like its gameplay and not because it's a "support DPS"!
RDM is a DPS! If they add tons of buffs to it they'll lower its dps even more so what's the point of bringing a RDM to run Savage if you have an enrage timer due to DPS check? Easier said than done. It's not your job that is being cut off from PF...

Well the thing is if you gave buffs to RDM damage buffs or gave them more damage buffs or something... it would kind of go without saying that it would make up for those damage differences and you wouldn't meet enrage...
I like RDM because its a spell caster with a sword but I also like it's more of a "support DPS" just because you want it to be a selfish dps or have the same support options as current doesn't mean everyone does, personally i think RDM other then needing a damage buff is fine as it is, I really like the job.

Should we just have every job be pure damage dealers, but also complain about "job diversity"? I feel like giving jobs support options is generally what can make certain jobs feel more fun and different to other jobs, this also makes jobs such as Black Mage tend to stand out more as a "pure damage dealer" which I personally like.

[Arguscbf]

Well the thing is if you gave buffs to RDM damage buffs or gave them more damage buffs or something... it would kind of go without saying that it would make up for those damage differences and you wouldn't meet enrage...
I like RDM because its a spell caster with a sword but I also like it's more of a "support DPS" just because you want it to be a selfish dps or have the same support options as current doesn't mean everyone does, personally i think RDM other then needing a damage buff is fine as it is, I really like the job.

Should we just have every job be pure damage dealers, but also complain about "job diversity"? I feel like giving jobs support options is generally what can make certain jobs feel more fun and different to other jobs, this also makes jobs such as Black Mage tend to stand out more as a "pure damage dealer" which I personally like.

I know what you're saying. Everyone says how Verraise is a great utility but the thing is a huge DPS loss AND delay the melee combo since we don't get white/black mana. Imo RDM should do more dmg than SMN not because of rotation complexity but because Verraise is SO punishing for a utility and should be compensated for DPS loss. SMN has an insta res every 60s if you spare Swiftcast for it AND it's way more mobile AND don't have to stay melee range to use certain skills(besides Ifrit's dash) AND have personal shield. RDM is the squishiest and the least mobile caster.

[Avoidy]

I know what you're saying. Everyone says how Verraise is a great utility but the thing is a huge DPS loss AND delay the melee combo since we don't get white/black mana. Imo RDM should do more dmg than SMN not because of rotation complexity but because Verraise is SO punishing for a utility and should be compensated for DPS loss. SMN has an insta res every 60s if you spare Swiftcast for it AND it's way more mobile AND don't have to stay melee range to use certain skills(besides Ifrit's dash) AND have personal shield. RDM is the squishiest and the least mobile caster.

Your argument seems to boil down to "because RDM can res a lot, it deserves to do more dps."
If this became a thing, what reason would SMN even have to exist. Furthermore, how would you account for moments where you don't have to res at all?

Also most SMNs use swiftcast in their rotation, so holding it to "maybe" res someone later is a dps loss. Not holding it and slowressing is also an obvious dps loss. You mentioned damage losses for rdm but forgot that SMNs have tradeoffs and basically get 1 real swiftres at their disposal. You also mention not having to be in melee range, and then you immediately bring up smn's forced melee gap closer. Like, I'm not gonna defend smn as a complex job, but come on. Your own post contradicts itself.

[Mithron]

This is pretty much how I feel as well. RDM also gets a barrier that shields the group against magic damage (i.e. raidwides), while SMN gets nothing like this unless you count addle, which every caster gets as a role action anyway. I'm not sure why you aren't including this under utility, but I do and so do most people when they talk about this kind of thing.

Basically, I'm just tired. I agree that RDM could use some love, but the people talking about doing more dps than smn "bcuz its ez" clearly just want their job to be on top and don't actually care about a balanced game.

I don't think defensive utility or mitigation should lower rDPS at all. That should only apply to tanks because they offer no raid damage buffs. I also don't think job difficulty should impact rDPS, either. I think both SMN and RDM currently need buffs, and personally, would like to see SMN have more utility like every summon having its own unique aura effect rather than just Phoenix.

I know what you're saying. Everyone says how Verraise is a great utility but the thing is a huge DPS loss AND delay the melee combo since we don't get white/black mana. Imo RDM should do more dmg than SMN not because of rotation complexity but because Verraise is SO punishing for a utility and should be compensated for DPS loss. SMN has an insta res every 60s if you spare Swiftcast for it AND it's way more mobile AND don't have to stay melee range to use certain skills(besides Ifrit's dash) AND have personal shield. RDM is the squishiest and the least mobile caster.

I don't think RDM should have lower damage because of Verraise, but I want to point out it's 1000000x easier to use Verraise as a RDM than it is to use Raise as a SMN because Swiftcast must be used on Slipstream (or at the very least a Ruby Rite) to avoid DPS loss. A single Verraise is much, much, much, much less punishing on RDM than a SMN using Swiftcast Raise. But I do agree RDM is far more difficult to play than SMN currently and is much less mobile.

[Mithron]

I main RDM because i like its gameplay and not because it's a "support DPS"!
RDM is a DPS! If they add tons of buffs to it they'll lower its dps even more so what's the point of bringing a RDM to run Savage if you have an enrage timer due to DPS check? Easier said than done. It's not your job that is being cut off from PF...

I'm a PLD main, so yes my job was being cut off from PF (as was RDM and MCH), and RDM is one of my favorite DPS to play too as I love its playstyle. The point of bringing RDM is that it's the same total DPS as every other job, as because it does less personal damage (currently the case), it makes up for it by buffing everyone else. Why bring a BRD or a DNC currently to Savage? Because while they do low personal damage, they make up for it in raid damage buffs. That's the point I'm making here and something you don't seem to understand. If every job is close to equal in total DPS contribution, then that means buffs like Mug, Embolden, Technical Finish, etc. are included and expected for the job, making every job viable in Savage raids. While RDM may do lower personal damage, they make up for it by buffing everyone else through Embolden (and any other additional buffs they need). You can keep your same rotation, just make Embolden's numbers bigger and perhaps their personal DPS as well if that's what's necessary. I just don't think RDM should do as much personal damage as most other jobs because it's against their core job identity (in my opinion), and if they did, then their total contribution would be too high and OP (like NIN currently is, which I also love NIN because it's meant to be more of a support DPS).

So to summarize: no one is saying nerf RDM. They're already among the bottom. What I'm saying is they should be near the bottom, but not greater than 1% difference, and most of their contribution of DPS should be similar to that of a BRD's or DNC's: through buffing others. They don't have to change their current playstyle of casting and melee combo, you can keep that. Just increase Embolden if necessary, and/or their personal DPS if that's necessary to get them where they need to be.

The differences in total DPS now are way too high, far more than 1%, which is what has caused this schism and PF blocking. The root cause of this schism are both fight design (too melee friendly) and poor job balance. Both need to be addressed, and it is likely a lot of the lower rDPS jobs (like RDM and MCH) will need both buffs in their raid damage buffs and personal DPS to be brought to about 1% difference in each other.