DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

[Gullis]

I just don't care when people do it, I just take the mobs back and move on, why get upset over a quick run with people you will likely never see again? its just not worth the hazzle imo. Only time it irks me a bit, is when people are watching cutscenes, and the tank is waiting on them before pulling, but the dps decides to pull anyway. Its very rare that happens in my experience tho.

When I was learning to tank, I always made sure to tell the group first when I entered the dungeon. Never had a single issue with this.
Of course easiest solution is to be in front of the group. Impossible for dps to pull then. Cheers

[ZedxKayn]

The most satisfying thing about tanks attempting to let other players die to teach them a lesson is using all my healing tools on whoever pulled, neglecting the tank if I have to.

The only lesson being taught is some humility.

[Jojoya]

I confess as a healer I sometimes go ahead of tank because I want to be done quickly and my tank is not pressing sprint or they're just slacking behind. I get that it's not a good habit but I've never had problems with it/died because if it so is it really a big deal?

Depends on the skill level of others in the group, and any latency problems the tank is having.

A tank with bad latency is going to one heck of a hard time collecting scattered mobs, and that's going to make it more difficult for an inexperienced healer who's now got to be trying to heal everyone in the party instead of focusing primarily on the tank. I don't have particularly bad latency myself but frequently I"ll be standing in the middle of a group of monsters to hit them with my AoE to gain enmity - and watch it miss ones that had been closest to me because a healer cast a heal or a DPS hit the mobs before my AoE went off so the mobs took off after them. The mobs farther away were still within range of my AoE when the server picks it up as going off but I'm stuck chasing down the ones it missed.

Instead of speeding things up, you've slowed them down because the mobs are no longer in a tidy pile to get hit by every AoE.

Even if the tank managed to gain aggro on everything, if DPS is using single targets attacks instead of AoEing the tank will be taking a beating for a much longer period of time. The group would have been better off pulling small so the healer could focus more on DPS instead of trying to keep the tank up.

The dumbest thing anyone can do in a party is assume everyone there has a high end PC with optimal internet connection and capable of performing at optimum skill level. Good tanks are going to go a bit slow at first to gauge how well the group is doing. If the group is on the ball, they'll usually pick up the pace.

You're getting away with it because you're confident in your skills as a healer. Would a party have the same result if it was an inexperienced healer?

The most satisfying thing about tanks attempting to let other players die to teach them a lesson is using all my healing tools on whoever pulled, neglecting the tank if I have to.

The only lesson being taught is some humility.

Sounds like your god complex is worse than some of the tanks I've run into.

But I'll happily switch off my stance and step aside for you to tank as healer if that's going to be your attitude.

That might actually solve some MMO issues - merge tank and healer roles into one since healing enmity is a powerful tool that affects all mobs in range instead of requiring a damaging attack to land to generate enmity. I always wish the other tank jobs had something like GMB's Aurora because works wonderfully for trash pulls. I never have to worry about trash chasing after my healer or DPS when I'm on GNB.

[Ath192]

Dodging a question and false equivalence, a classic.
What does waiting for a tank mean? Pulling when a tank said "brb"? Pulling one second before a tank because you are a BRD? One does not feel like the other, although I believe this doesn't matter when arguing in bad faith.

No sir. I don’t dodge questions. So don’t misinterpret. I’m all about the truth. And was merely pointing that your statement can be applied to both sides of the argument. Making it redundant. In fact I could be wrong if some sort of conclusive evidence proves DPS have always been the intended pullers in this game. It’s about establishing norms.

Now onto your direct questions with direct answers.

1. Waiting for a tank to pull means… well waiting for the tank to hit the mob first. If the tank AFKs it is customary to wait for them unless they say go ahead without me. Same with other party members really. Both do feel like the same imo, since you can delay your GCD by 1 second. But if the tank was already pulling that won’t likely raise any eyebrows.
2. Why a tank should always pull on FFXIV - I don’t know if they should, hence I proposed to ask. However, using logic and math tanks have ranged attacks, enmity generation AOEs and high defense making them statistically speaking the most resilient and well equipped class to pull.
3. It is in the gameplay, several dungeons have very hard hitting mobs that can take out DPS in three to five hits. The first one that comes to mind is bardams mettle. Having a dps pull with an inexperienced healer could easily divide his attention and a wipe could ensue since tanks lose their health rapidly in that dungeon.
4. It may be an unspoken rule. But I don’t think it should be. Hence an official statement or guide would be helpful.
5. This can apply to the dps as well, aiding the enemy could easily encompass a DPS pulling and splitting the healers attention thereby causing a wipe. Not everyone has max ilvl gear and knows how to weave Ogcd heals in properly and you’d be surprised how many new tanks don’t mitigate well.

So now I have questions for you.
1. Why do you think I argue in bad faith? Do my questions not stem from logic?
2. What mathematical/statistical merits do you think make DPS the better pullers? -I’m bored and impatient aren’t statistics.

[ForteNightshade]

I think you're skipping over the question again. The question is should they pull? Its obvious we all want a tank that is the bigger person and fixes problems instead of creating more. Or are you arguing its correct form and gameplay for the DPS and Healers to start pulling for the tank because they couldn't bother write in chat asking him to go faster?

You seem to imply the tank should definitely ask in party chat. That seems like a double standard.

While the intent is different, it is still wrong, so this is a case of two wrongs don't make a right.

It ultimately doesn't really matter who pulls is what I'm saying. The whole idea of Tanks should pull derives from old MMOs where mobs were legitimately threatening enough that a DPS running ahead to grab extra was essentially suicide. At best, you'd have Range players grab something and kite but otherwise it simply didn't make sense for DPS or Healers to pull back then. Nowadays, especially in FFXIV, dungeon mobs hit like wet tissue paper. A Melee DPS with Bloodbath can tank an entire three pack pull themselves. Hell, they can even do a big pull with the occasional spot healing. Mobs are entirely non-threatening, thus who pulls is largely irrelevant. Hence why the standard is to pull everything. This puts the onus on the tank if they want to deviate from said expectation.

[JungoBungo]

If I'm tanking and a DPS or Healer pulls more stuff intentionally I just take that as confirmation I can go a little harder (not that this happens often now anyway since I largely go w2w with a few exceptions). I'm not spiteful enough to waste everybody's time by chancing a healer losing valuable resources (so that they less effectively do their job) to heal a DPS or themselves when we can all just finish the duty faster if I swallow my pride, do my own job that I queued for, and just pick up the mob. It's not like generating aggro is difficult anymore.

The only instance in which I think it's a problem is when it happens and the party clearly can't handle it because of less capable healing or damage, and the offending individual continues that behavior after more than one wipe.

[ZedxKayn]

Sounds like your god complex is worse than some of the tanks I've run into.

Is making a choice on who to heal in a situation in which I'm unable to keep two people alive having a god complex?

[KariTheFox]

Is making a choice on who to heal in a situation in which I'm unable to keep two people alive having a god complex?

Especially when one of those people is intentionally sandbagging. At that point it's just cooperating with the player who is actually playing the game too.

[Nubrication]

Popping sprint and doing big pulls is the meta. If you’re not popping sprint, people are gonna pull for you. Atleast that’s what I noticed. I always sprint and pull multiple groups and nobody pulls for me. So there’s that.

[Scaramouche]

A simple, "Pls don't pull ahead. I'm still getting used to tanking" would suffice.

Does a sprout with no job, viewing cutscene and their level not being sync with the pop up "a member is new to this duty" need to tell he is new or it's obvious enough?