DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

[TaleraRistain]

Tanks pulling has been an MMO staple since...well, forever, in games that utilize tanks, healers and dps. We don't need Yoshi P to tell us anything on this. Seriously. This is just unnecessary. How things have worked from the start is our answer.

DPS or even healer classes pulled in EverQuest. Rangers and druids had skills like snare to slow the mobs down as they brought them back to the tank. Monks could bring the mobs back to the tank's feet and then feign death to drop all aggro. Most tanks just wouldn't survive that many mobs hitting on them away from healers (because things hit like Mack trucks), so that's why DPS did it. Later on shadowknights, a tank class, got the feign death ability so they were added to the pulling roster but usually still bringing things back to another tank. The big difference in that era of MMOs was that everyone waited back at camp while someone went out and pulled mobs to it. Though it was so ingrained in us that even when we got instanced dungeons, we still kept to the same camp and run back mentality. Though to be fair, the design also pretty much required that, even if it changed to progressively making our way through different pull spots in the dungeon.

Whenever these threads come up and people go on about being a team based game, I wonder why we don't condemn *both* mentalities. If we're a team, we should move together, no? If a member of the team is paused for a moment, why aren't we encouraging staying with them and making sure we move as a unit? Why don't we trust other members to know what they're capable of, and support each other in our roles? Why do we allow any lone wolf actions in a team based game?

[Ath192]

The answer is within the tos around Lethargic Play and Nescience Behavior. You are prohibited from pk'ing others by manipulating Enmity generating actions or failing to perform your role when could have.

Those who think it is acceptable can and perhaps should spend some time waiting for the GM in Goal.

You're focusing on the wrong thing. While I agree a tank should do their job the actual question is whether DPS and Healers should pull to being with. This pattern always emerges where non-tanks think its okay, and then it turns into a personal crusade against tanks that try to retaliate towards that behavior by refusing to tank.

It's very clear to me DPS would like to coerce the tanks into putting up with them and wield the report card if they dare refuse. This is rather toxic imo. But I'm interested in looking at whether the initial behavior is acceptable or not. That of the DPS pulling. It would change the conversation from (A) the tanks having to put up with whatever the DPS feel like doing or (B) the Tanks being considerate and making up for the mistakes that the DPS are doing by pulling.

Personally I side with B.

1. DPS is doing wrong by pulling
2. Tanks need to adjust and save the day by compensating

I say this as a non tank main too. So I'm not trying to boost my ego here.

[rewd]

Personally I side with B.

1. DPS is doing wrong by pulling
2. Tanks need to adjust and save the day by compensating

Save the day by... Not AFKing? Because that's what you have to do in order to establish aggro. Thanks, I guess?

If getting aggro was a rather complex and annoying process, then yes, I would side with you, but this is not the game we are playing.

[Ath192]

Save the day by... Not AFKing? Because that's what you have to do in order to establish aggro. Thanks, I guess?

Pretty much. If waiting for the tank to pull was a rather complex and annoying process then I would side with the DPS, but all they have to do is get over themselves and wait. I guess thats not the game we're playing either though.

[ForteNightshade]

It's very clear to me DPS would like to coerce the tanks into putting up with them and wield the report card if they dare refuse. This is rather toxic imo. But I'm interested in looking at whether the initial behavior is acceptable or not. That of the DPS pulling. It would change the conversation from (A) the tanks having to put up with whatever the DPS feel like doing or (B) the Tanks being considerate and making up for the mistakes that the DPS are doing by pulling.

In this scenario, the tank should type in chat asking that the DPS/Healer not pull ahead of them. And to do so without snippy remarks implying how they'll let them die or whatever. A simple, "Pls don't pull ahead. I'm still getting used to tanking" would suffice. If they continuously do so, then the tank has a better argument. Granted, in most cases, GMs will advise you to simply leave the dungeon. Now you could argue the DPS/Healer should ask beforehand, and we can certainly debate that.

Nevertheless, when the DPS/Healer pull, they aren't intending to cause a wipe even if one occurs. A tank refusing to take aggro is deliberately griefing another player. The intent is what separates the two.

[Ath192]

In this scenario, the tank should type in chat asking that the DPS/Healer not pull ahead of them. And to do so without snippy remarks implying how they'll let them die or whatever. A simple, "Pls don't pull ahead. I'm still getting used to tanking" would suffice. If they continuously do so, then the tank has a better argument. Granted, in most cases, GMs will advise you to simply leave the dungeon. Now you could argue the DPS/Healer should ask beforehand, and we can certainly debate that.

Nevertheless, when the DPS/Healer pull, they aren't intending to cause a wipe even if one occurs. A tank refusing to take aggro is deliberately griefing another player. The intent is what separates the two.

I think you're skipping over the question again. The question is should they pull? Its obvious we all want a tank that is the bigger person and fixes problems instead of creating more. Or are you arguing its correct form and gameplay for the DPS and Healers to start pulling for the tank because they couldn't bother write in chat asking him to go faster?

You seem to imply the tank should definitely ask in party chat. That seems like a double standard.

While the intent is different, it is still wrong, so this is a case of two wrongs don't make a right.

[Coletergeist]

If I'm a healer pulling for a tank, it's because I'm bored out of my mind doing 1 button dps and no healing because there's no need if the tank is pulling so small there's no damage being done. I'm sure that goes for any healer pulling for tanks for the most part. There needs to be more trust with your party; if they are pulling for you, you have every means to grab the aggro if they bring it to you.
I'd rather a run be fun than pressing 1 button, y'know?
I typically don't pull as a healer, but I do understand why it happens and I have trust in the tank to be able to handle it. If the healer is already hardly healing in the first place, you can trust they will have the ability to heal you if you start taking more damage because we have massive kits we don't touch.
I feel the same about dps; if they pull, I'm sure it's because they believe the party can handle it. As a tank, just do your aoe and you've established aggro with that particular mob they pulled (granted, if they bring it to the tank).

[Jin-]

And people suggest FFXIV doesn't have a toxic casual problem.

Funny since it is the very opposite of that in this very topic. Toxic "speed runners" wanting to control how someone is playing.

I pull sometimes too, depends if I'm on a bad mood. If I die for that I'm not blaming the tank.

[rewd]

Pretty much. If waiting for the tank to pull was a rather complex and annoying process then I would side with the DPS, but all they have to do is get over themselves and wait. I guess thats not the game we're playing either though.

Dodging a question and false equivalence, a classic.
What does waiting for a tank mean? Pulling when a tank said "brb"? Pulling one second before a tank because you are a BRD? One does not feel like the other, although I believe this doesn't matter when arguing in bad faith.

Even though I fear you will probably skip these questions and say something unrelated again: what tells you clearly, unmistakably and unequivocally that a tank, and only a tank, should always pull?

Is it in the name? "Tank" does not quite carry that meaning, I'm afraid.

Is it in the gameplay? Maybe in another game. Enmity is a non-mechanic that requires you to not AFK.

What else? Is it determined by an unspoken rule - which we could describe as one of the most common symptoms of the anime main character syndrome - that somehow takes precedence over actually written rules that state quite clearly one should not manipulate enmity-related actions, engage in lethargic behaviour and aid the enemy?

[MiaShino]

You're focusing on the wrong thing. While I agree a tank should do their job the actual question is whether DPS and Healers should pull to being with. This pattern always emerges where non-tanks think its okay, and then it turns into a personal crusade against tanks that try to retaliate towards that behavior by refusing to tank.

There is no personal crusade anything. The job of the deeps is to do damage. The job of the healer is to heal. The job of the tank is to hold Enmity.

It's very clear to me DPS would like to coerce the tanks into putting up with them and wield the report card if they dare refuse. This is rather toxic imo. But I'm interested in looking at whether the initial behavior is acceptable or not. That of the DPS pulling. It would change the conversation from (A) the tanks having to put up with whatever the DPS feel like doing or (B) the Tanks being considerate and making up for the mistakes that the DPS are doing by pulling.

See the above stuffs. The tank does not set the pace nor do they get to dictate pull size and speed. The party does this collectively because this is team game. The tos is non specific on dps pulling because it is so commonly not issue at'all. Playing dps allows for understanding things I did not in past times. They have procs that can expire, mitigation tools, self buffs to apply, etc. You are looking at this wrong and letting emotions govern your thinking processes. Not every pulling dps is being rude unless you delude yourself into believing that then of course it will always seem this way.

Personally I side with B.

1. DPS is doing wrong by pulling
2. Tanks need to adjust and save the day by compensating

This right here is some savior complex nonsense. You are playing a video game as a beefy boy that makes enemies hate them by spamming the aoe. Tanks and healers are not special just because they selected one of the three major roles in a mmorpg. You are not saving the day by aggroing mobs you are doing the job you queued as. Likewise for healing someone who stood in the bad. People need to stop and just play the game.

I say this as a non tank main too. So I'm not trying to boost my ego here.

You say this however the passion for this topic tells me you may have dabbled in tanking or perhaps have partner/friend who does. Likely single pull Sallying when the dps pulled. I have had friends or been executed by tanks before hence why I am passionately making replies here. It is mildly obnoxious on good day to be killed because someone other then you pulled. YPYT catches innocent players all the fricken time. Ever stop to think about that? Square did which is why the TOS is highly specific about Enmity generating actions and not dps pulling.

It does not require Yoshi P himself speaking on the matter.

You have a chat function so use it. Dps pulling? Ask them to stop doing that.
Tank not pulling enough? Ask them to pull more.

No one has the right to pk each other over mild play style disagreements and that is all the tos need specify. Square expects players to utilize the tools available to them for the resolving of issues. Kick or talk, this is what you do.

If you are a tank that single baby pulls just stop doing that or queue with trusts where available. Waiting in one twenty minute queue to spend twenty five minutes in a dungeon that could be completed in eight minutes is mildly infuriating. Naturally there are exceptions because of course there are. Deeps running away with the mobs or over pulling extra enemies and killing the party but this is covered under monster player kill and resolvable by talking.

Other exceptions would be upon inspecting a tank and seeing all level 90 tanks but they are single pulling. It is obvious that discussion with that player is unlikely to go anywhere so deeps/healers may pull and opt for silence or being kicked. I cannot blame them, especially the healer. You can do single pulls without a healer. Heck! You can wall pull without a healer.

The day Square augments the TOS to make kicking lethargic tanks or for play style differences a violation will be the day I cease using the roulette system. It will not and never should be normalized that one of four people has right to hold the other three hostage in a fricken video game because walking forward and pressing the aoe buttons is stressful.