Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Dzian]

"Remove to improve" strikes again.

Can't wait when they finally remove tank stances too because in a few years even Genshin Impact gonna have more skills/keys to use than FFXIV

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

[ItsUrBoi]

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

But it does. In fact more so than almost any other skill Samurai has right now ( maybe except Tsubame ). While in the opener its easy to miss why it is important, in the 1 minute burst it is basically a question of how many Shintens can you use, while always having enough kenki too boost your next Iaijutsu. Without this mechanic you can literally just dump it all mindlessly on Shinten whenever you want, otherwise you'd have to always make sure you are not at <20 kenki when finishing a combo and having to use an Iaijutsu. Try doing the samurai opener and rotation optimally and you will see that it does require you to stop yourself from using Shinten on cooldown.

Also how often do you even use Kaiten, its used once per minute on Higanbana, and once on every Iaijutsu + Ogi Namikiri... It has an average cast of 4.5 per minute or so. That's one cast every 15 seconds. Look at how often people use it across a fight, seriously.

Reasoning this change on button bloat is weird and not so rational, turning Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri, or replacing Shoha with Shoha 2 would be better ways to address button bloat without sacrificing job mechanics / complexity.
If you do not play Samurai, nor understand the opener / how it works, please refrain from saying whether or not a button carries no weight or impact. You need a better understanding of the job first.
All this change does is it lowers the skill floor of the job while taking away 1 button and a cool animation.

[Dzian]

Snip

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

[ItsUrBoi]

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

I understand what your saying about it being a choice, and you are right you always want to use Kaiten before any Iaijutsu, but you are not getting my point also.
My point in short is that you have to not use Shinten whenever you want, so that you have enough for a Kaiten. Kaiten is mandatory before every Iaijutsu and strict, while Shinten is not, so you are making a choice to not use Shinten when you have >25 Kenki because if you got a Iaijutsu coming up you won't have enough for the mandatory Kaiten.
I hope it makes sense now.

[LeonKeyh]

[...]So I don't even know why I'm accepting your opinion on what the dev's meant, when the translation was right there on the slide.

You should accept their "opinion" on what the devs meant because the unofficial translation of what they were talking about mentioned that there was a mistranslation and they meant "actions" or "button presses" bloat, not hotbar bloat.

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

You're missing the point by zooming in too much on Kaiten; The weight of Kaiten isn't felt with Kaiten itself, it's with the need to manage your Kenki gauge to make sure you will/do have enough Kenki to spend on Kaiten whenever you're going to use Iaijutsu while ALSO spamming Shinten. This becomes "If I use Shinten now, I have 2 more attacks in this combo left to generate Kenki before I'll need to hit Kaiten, are those attacks going to generate the Kenki that I need for Kaiten? Or should I hold on using Shinten?"

[Liam_Harper]

But it does. In fact more so than almost any other skill Samurai has right now ( maybe except Tsubame ). While in the opener its easy to miss why it is important, in the 1 minute burst it is basically a question of how many Shintens can you use, while always having enough kenki too boost your next Iaijutsu. Without this mechanic you can literally just dump it all mindlessly on Shinten whenever you want, otherwise you'd have to always make sure you are not at <20 kenki when finishing a combo and having to use an Iaijutsu. T

Exactly.

Kenki now becomes the Shinten gauge. This means the gauge has far less point and Shinten is just a mindless filler. Somewhere down the line they'll probably make Senai and Gyoten plain oGCD's to "streamline" it, then eventually remove Kenki entirely and make Shinten a plain 30 sec oGCD.

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

You can apply this to so many things. Maintenance buffs for a start. The 1 step in your 1-2-3 combo is just "tedious filler" to use 2 and 2 is tedious filler to reach 3. Why do RPR's have to press Blood Stalk and Gluttony? Why do NIN always have to press Mudras? Why make DNC's do 3 steps? What's the point of any ability that grants resource or gauge, just make them recharge a little faster. Or a better example is why does Reassemble exist on MCH still or Zoe on SGE.

Kaiten gives the Kenki gauge purpose. If they wanted to get rid of it, they should have added something else to keep the gauge meaningful.

[Dzian]

You can apply this to so many things. Maintenance buffs for a start. The 1 step in your 1-2-3 combo is just "tedious filler" to use 2 and 2 is tedious filler to reach 3. Why do RPR's have to press Blood Stalk and Gluttony? Why do NIN always have to press Mudras? Why make DNC's do 3 steps? What's the point of any ability that grants resource or gauge, just make them recharge a little faster. Or a better example is why does Reassemble exist on MCH still or Zoe on SGE.

Kaiten gives the Kenki gauge purpose. If they wanted to get rid of it, they should have added something else to keep the gauge meaningful.

True but at the same time Ninjas mudras is probably the best example of how it only takes a few buttons to create engaging game play. 4 or 5 buttons on ninja can drop 8 or 9 different skills with different effects depending on how you interact with them..

i find it to be one of the most engaging jobs for that reason alone. perhaps a little less so since they put mudras on the gcd but still those 4 buttons (5 with kassatsu) do more than any other buttons in the game imo.

as for the rest of you're quote combat itself has been pretty tedious since beta.. and slowly getting worse.. early ARR combat was ok in coils where there was a lot more to do than just hitthings till there dead. but so many elements of combat have died, resource management, (mp tp) eminity, crowd control, weaknesses, placement, (gotta bind that golem in just the right place to get petrified so you can hide behind it) and now its just mindlessly whack out the same rotation till its dead..

and what makes it tedious is that when the next patch comes with new content and new bosses it's essentially the same rotation yet again.. and the next patch after that and after that and so on..

This alone tells me you don't know how to play the class, so its hard to take what you say serious. But, Kaiten is one of the few skills that actually tie a classes 2 gauges together. I think most players would rather keep kaiten and have the whole meditation system scrapped to reduce button bloat. Which shoha only exists, because meditate served little purpose originally, so instead of removing a useless skill the repurposed it into something that wasn't needed. Sadly kaiten being removed is making samurai like most classes, have a gauge that is used for a single skill. Which at that point why even have the gauge at all it's now just screen clutter.

honestly its not a difficult class to play. basicaslly never let your kenki drop below 20 and you're golden. Always keep 20 for either kaiten or Yaten / gap closer if you want to optimise uptime. boom done..

only 83 at present though but i cant imaging it changes that drastically at 90..

[KokaSokaLoka]

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

No, you'd just use it for every higanbana or ogi namikiri. There'd be no strategy still because SE is streamlining jobs to that point and there's always a best use for something. You're basically just suggesting Reassembled but for SAM. And if thinking about strategizing the job is fun to you then how can you be in support of streamlining jobs? Taking away Kaiten reduces the thinking needed with kenki management from 1 braincell to 0.

[KokaSokaLoka]

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.



pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

You skip the first Kaiten on the first Midare, then proceed as normal. And then without shinten you have nothing to spend it on but kaiten which is also not deep or engaging. I don't understand how "it's not deep or engaging" is an argument to make something even less deep or engaging?

And allow me to pose this argument - Less skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. Cookie Clicker is not a fun or invigorating gameplay experience because you only have one button to press, though I suppose with the arguments I see here some people seem to think it's peak video game design.

FFXIV raid design has always been a dance. Very rarely do they utilize a stun/interrupt which is about the biggest "impact" you can use a skill on a fight. Every other skill basically serves to do damage, reduce damage taken, or heal. FFXIV has a slow gcd speed and the reason for that is so you can better utilize ogcds. Take off all your ogcds and play through P1S, you'll have so much free time on your hands. I took Kaiten off my hotbar with my static's weekly run on Tuesday for P1S, the gameplay felt way more empty, and that's with still using shinten and third eye. How incredibly boring it would be to not have to weave anything. The basis of your argument is pointlessly reductionist, 95% of the buttons in the game serves to do damage, reduce damage taken, or heal - so by your argument it's all bloat.

[IdowhatIwant]

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

This alone tells me you don't know how to play the class, so its hard to take what you say serious. But, Kaiten is one of the few skills that actually tie a classes 2 gauges together. I think most players would rather keep kaiten and have the whole meditation system scrapped to reduce button bloat. Which shoha only exists, because meditate served little purpose originally, so instead of removing a useless skill the repurposed it into something that wasn't needed. Sadly kaiten being removed is making samurai like most classes, have a gauge that is used for a single skill. Which at that point why even have the gauge at all it's now just screen clutter.