Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Larirawiel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=502gpaH-zNE

Lucy Pyre has made a video about it ^^


Cheers

[Silver-Strider]

Right... Ten Chi Jen, Suiton into cooldowns.

At no point does it feel like the job stutters because of a randomly placed cast-bar.

I have to stop moving for Ten Chi Jen and if I do move, the rotation is thrown off because I miss the Sulton at the end. It's way more punishing than Midare and has the exact same stipulation of being unable to move but at least all I do with Midare is delay the skill a second or two. You're argument that Midare is some sort of stutter is asinine. I don't even play SAM or NIN and I can tell you, I much prefer SAM's "stutter" to NIN's Ten Chi Jen any day of the week.

[Laphicet]

I don't like the removal of Kaiten as much as anyone else. But the writing has been on the wall for a long time. People should have been sticking up for healer and tank mains when their classes were getting simplified into the dirt, but not enough people did and now we're here, with DPS classes getting simplified too. I know some people in here did share in those complaints at the time, but I am willing to bet a good chunk of players were just apathetic if not in agreement with the healer simplification as well as the simplification of other roles like tanks, ranged DPS, and casters. Only for the simplification of everything to finally hit the Melee DPS and NOW suddenly a ton of people care.

Even going by the argument of class flavor. ASTs cards were gutted in the name of balance, and so were the twin sects, both taking lore and job flavor with it. Same goes for DRK with the whole "leaning too far into your arts will hurt you" being neglected with the removal of dark arts and MP not really being a replacement mechanic. Same for SCH losing its Arcanist roots and WHM losing its elemental roots in favor of becoming a bishop. And now people are trying to use class favor as an argument here too when in the devs eyes class flavor doesn't matter over raw balance.

[Xenon_S]

I do think class flavor is an important discussion, lest we just play a game where we tpose and attack an image of a boss. But thank you for putting into hard numbers what I've been thinking. None of the cited reasons from the devs actually solve what they're trying to fix. If CPM is an issue MCH, DRK, GNB, and AST are all sweating. Every person I've talked to who thinks they'll press less buttons has completely forgotten that you'll go from pressing Kaiten to pressing Shinten. The class will be just as busy but without the kenki management because there's no punishment for using it all. It also tells us that they don't plan on adding anything back because that would add more actions, so this is a plain over-simplification of the class.

Same with the crits - if the difference between the highest direct critical hit and the regular hit is so large then the answer was to reduce the potency of midare/ogi namikiri and spread the potency around the kit. Instead they just indirectly nerfed SCH/DRG/DNC and sorta kinda BRD. It feels like they looked at SAM in a vacuum and made changes without thinking about party composition. To be honest, from what I've seen from top logs is that the difference isn't that large. When you see a difference in the amounts of 300-500 dps it's because the higher dps crit an ungodly high amount, like of course the person who crits 70% of their midares and kaeshi setsugekkas is going to do a boatload more damage than the person who crit 20%. That 70% is nigh unattainable, an outlier, and should barely be considered when balancing the class.

I agree that class flavour is important, but it can also be quite a subjective matter. I am a kaiten enthusiast myself, but I consider it a futile attempt to convince another who happens to be in the oppsing camp. So I opt to go for another angle with a more objective metric to support my argument. Not to mention the action bloat issue was the main cited reason in the liveletter, so I thought to address that as well.

[Ivtrix]

YOU WILL ALL UNGA BUNGA BURST AT TWO MINUTES EVERY FIGHT AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT

[Xenon_S]

I don't like the removal of Kaiten as much as anyone else. But the writing has been on the wall for a long time. People should have been sticking up for healer and tank mains when their classes were getting simplified into the dirt, but nobody did and now we're here, with DPS classes getting simplified too. I know some people in here did share in those complaints at the time, but I am willing to bet a good chunk of players were just apathetic if not in agreement with the healer simplification as well as the simplification of other roles like tanks, ranged DPS, and casters. Only for the simplification of everything to finally hit the Melee DPS and NOW suddenly a ton of people care.

Consider me somewhat optimistic, but hear this out.
If this display of public upsetness over Kaiten removal is effective, it would give the community some renewed confidence that the job balancing team does indeed listen, and more DPS players would be inclined in joining their voices to the dissatisfied tanks and healers.
I'm not a frequent on the forums, but I don't think the tanks/healers have made this level of noise before? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

[Xenon_S]

I have to stop moving for Ten Chi Jen and if I do move, the rotation is thrown off because I miss the Sulton at the end. It's way more punishing than Midare and has the exact same stipulation of being unable to move but at least all I do with Midare is delay the skill a second or two. You're argument that Midare is some sort of stutter is asinine. I don't even play SAM or NIN and I can tell you, I much prefer SAM's "stutter" to NIN's Ten Chi Jen any day of the week.

Worst part is when the suiton animatiin comes out but you move before the buff is applied, it just feels bad.
Tenchijin effect ending with movement is just not nesessary at this point since they practically force you to do suiton and eat it with meisui (which is actual button bloat as a result of removing flexibility from gameplay). In no scenario you want to do less than 3 mudras in TCJ and preventing movement is just a feel bad restriction. Why not make it so that the TCJ buffs ends upon executing 3 mudras, or by pressing TCJ again (with a 1 sec CD to prevent misfire from spamming) like how you turn off tank stance?

[Laphicet]

Consider me somewhat optimistic, but hear this out.
If this display of public upsetness over Kaiten removal is effective, it would give the community some renewed confidence that the job balancing team does indeed listen, and more DPS players would be inclined in joining their voices to the dissatisfied tanks and healers.
I'm not a frequent on the forums, but I don't think the tanks/healers have made this level of noise before? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues
Thread that ran through the entirety of ShB and some of EW. Nothing done.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-quit-healing
Started in ShB, still going, nothing done.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-play-Ultimate
Started in response to very rude and tone-deaf response from director. No apology or any kind of response from dev team.

Constant complaints in-game and out, nothing done. From everything on class design to even outfit design. Devs even said shit like "We hear your feedback and we don't care" (liveletter before EW launch), "If you don't like it just go play Ultimate" (Response to healer question during most recent Q&A), "We're nerfing energy drain because we want healers to focus on healing" (very tone-deaf justification for the ED nerf in patch 5.4 that shows a lack of understanding of healer gameplay), "Scholar does most of the DPS and leaves WHM to do all the healing" (factually incorrect quote from a SB liveletter, the opposite is what actually happened during that expac), and many other examples. Nothing done. The only difference in this case is a role more people care about actually got hit instead of the green babysitter role that only a few fools like myself still care about.
And as for your main point. People are very passive as a whole, and don't usually care about things until they themselves are affected by such. At such times though its often too late to start pushing back, and this is one such case. And even if by some miracle the devs listen most people will be content with just that and won't keep on pushing or realize that other people have complaints... best it will do is break some of the more jaded healer mains out of their depression and get them to start complaining again.

[SeverianLyonesse]

YOU WILL ALL UNGA BUNGA BURST AT TWO MINUTES EVERY FIGHT AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT

This bothers me more than the change to SAM specifically. And part of it is due to hardcore players insisting on set rotations and syncing up burst windows, and the devs responding by making fights even more scripted to a timer and moving even more jobs toward 1 or 2 minute burst rotations.

That bores me. I want reactionary gameplay, not a piece of music I have to memorize. I want to actually feel good for making immediate choices, not feel bad for not being perfectly in sync with a bunch of drones. But people treated the game that way and it has become the dominant paradigm.

[SpiralMask]

i must truly give out my deepest condolences to all who are now experiencing a fraction of what playing a healer feels like every expac.
honestly.
nobody deserves such treatment.