Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Minarisweet]

A lot of people don't want this skill gone and just trying to invalidate why they like it is insulting, please stop doing this.

[MoonMoon97]

I've already posted in another thread but since this one seems to be gaining traction, I will just post mainly what I've already said.

Minus the obvious alternatives like consolidating the other skills such as Shoha/Shoha II, Ikishoten/Ogi Namikri, there are reasons why I would like kaiten to stay besides it being a cool animation and actually fun to press (which is a totally valid reason as to why it should stay).

For me, kaiten is a skill that helps tie the kenki gauge and the sen gauge together. By removing kaiten, you're removing the major link between the two resources essentially and basically making the kenki bar separated and making it mostly tied to one spammable skill. Now you can pretty much remove the kenki bar from your UI and don't even have to worry about overcapping kenki because you can just spam shinten as soon as you can. I don't want that. That's very mind numbingly boring and I'd argue that kaiten is a more interesting button than shinten. With kaiten, you at least had to actively do some kenki math before each burst window especially the 2nd window to make sure you have kaiten for all the iaijutsu and ogi namikiri + senei in the 2nd window. Not having enough would mean you could lose out a kaiten-buffed higanbana, drifting Senei out of raid windows, or even drifting Ogi Namikiri out of raid windows. To me, it just felt rewarding to me when you are able to execute that burst window correctly because of how busy that 2 minute window could feel.

And let's say 'action bloat' was lost in translation, and they removed kaiten because it made the job feel busy with high APM. It still wouldn't make sense because the kenki you no longer spend on kaiten will have to be used for shinten anyways which is more boring. You're pressing one less button per like minute. Doesn't help all that much. Instead you're just mind numbingly spending it on shinten.

I hope that the development team reconsider the removal of kaiten. I very much would like it to stay. I was generally in a happy state with EW's iteration of Samurai so seeing this proposed felt like a betrayal from the development team.

[Faafetai]

https://youtu.be/W1ZtBCpo0eU?t=50

I am ready for the difficulty options to be implemented soon. Never forget my mom doing the 'That Old Familiar Feeling' gladiator level 15 class quest on normal, sitting down on a table during the fight and leaving to go to the bathroom. When she came back Aldis won the fight for her. She literally did nothing. I know this is a bit off topic, but this change leaves me feeling similarly. It is only the beginning...or well actually the continuation. Unsure when the beginning of The Great Simplification™ truly began.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

https://youtu.be/W1ZtBCpo0eU?t=50

I am ready for the difficulty options to be implemented soon. Never forget my mom doing the 'That Old Familiar Feeling' gladiator level 15 class quest on normal, sitting down on a table during the fight and leaving to go to the bathroom. When she came back Aldis won the fight for her. She literally did nothing. I know this is a bit off topic, but this change leaves me feeling similarly. It is only the beginning...or well actually the continuation. Unsure when the beginning of The Great Simplification™ truly began.

2.2ish when they made warrior easier because it was too hard to play well

[SeaJae]

I'm going to preface this by saying the earliest SAM I know is Shadowbringers SAM. So whatever use Kaiten has seen before then, to me, is irrelevant. This also goes for other abilities that may have been removed in the past that acted like Kaiten. It doesn't matter to how SAM is today.

Today, Kaiten is a skill that serves a purpose unlike any other in the game. The closest abilities I can think of is DRG's Life Surge and MCH's Reassemble, but even those are different because there is no gauge cost associated with them. The design of using such a skill then, an oGCD to power up a GCD by spending a resource, is one that has become fairly iconic and job defining. This is especially the case when it's used as much as it is on a SAM.

By concept, Kaiten is the power-up to unleash a devastating blow.
By sight, Kaiten is the masterful flourish of your blade before landing a precise strike.
By feeling, Kaiten is the pumping of a shotgun before firing it.

It is our second most used button. Now, it's gone. And with it, a piece of the job's identity.

Not only that, but a ternary decision has become a binary one. Binary decisions are rarely fun. We are humans. We are not computers. It does not matter whether the ternary decision was easy. The headline here is now it is even easier. No longer do you have to consider the moments of Shinten use and the timing of your Kaiten-Iaijutsu abilities. No longer even, with the further eradication of buffs occurring outside of 2mins, do you have to consider when you use your gauge outside of the 20s of raid buffs. We don't have meaningful agency on our Shinten use for the majority of a fight. Pooling in anticipation for 2min buffs is all that is left. All this newfound Kenki to be spent on Shinten, and very little mastery to be expressed. Unless, of course, you are given an AST card. Who knows how long that will last, the writing on the wall is plain to see after they called out the "business" of AST. Odds are, the expression of that VERY extreme case of masterful Shinten use will soon be eliminated as well. But I digress.

Point is: Shinten being the only meaningful spender of our gauge for the majority of the fight does not make for fun game-play. I don't want to poke things to death. With this change, Shinten will be our most used ability by far. I don't like that for many reasons. I don't like it for the above reason of it being a very simplistic decision of when to use Shinten. I don't like it conceptually as a SAM who is supposed to be cutting more than poking. I don't like it visually as the flow of animation becomes very spammy and nonsensical, even in the world of Final Fantasy.

All of what I'm trying to say is - on many different view points, the removal of Kaiten is not worth it. It's not worth it for button bloat. It's not worth it for action bloat. It's not worth it for reducing business. It's simply not worth it.

[Divinemights]

Good news is JP side is very negative on this change too.
There maybe a chance this will not happen, maybe?

[AziraSyuren]

It'll probably happen because it's too late to change, but it might be reverted come 6.2.

[YukiB]

Just made a forum account to add my dissent to the removal of Hissatsu: Kaiten, for all the many reasons stated in this thread:

• Loss of class fantasy (!!!)
• Loss of aesthetically pleasing animation and sound
• Loss of (mildly) engaging gauge management
• Loss of oGCD variety

As petty as it is, this proposed change has killed my motivation to play the game. I was starting to really enjoy SAM and had been gearing mine up. It was my favorite DPS this expansion. But what I don't enjoy is SAM's gameplay prior to 52. Kaiten's satisfying flourish, the way it flows into the iaijutsu animation, and the class fantasy of focusing energy into our powerful attacks, defines the job in my eyes. Shinten is boring in comparison. I don't want to play SAM without Kaiten. And if I don't want to play my favorite DPS, how do I justify playing the others?

I'll almost certainly unsub until 6.2 or 6.3 if Hissatsu: Kaiten is removed.

Technically off-topic, but I can't say I'm thrilled about the guaranteed crit changes either due to job synergy concerns. A much better idea to address crit variance is to make our larger attacks multiple hits where appropriate. Midare Setsugekka, Kaeshi Setsugekka, and Hissatsu: Senei are perfect candidates to be turned into 2-hit attacks. Shoha can be turned into 5 hits if you're desperate. Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi Namikiri are problematic, but you can make those two alone guaranteed crits if you want.

[ShanaShirayuki]

I'm not casual, nor am I bad. I just hated what they did to SAM in the last expansion.

And people acting like kaiten is somehow the lynchpin to what SAM is.

The forums are full of people overreacting (as usual).

It's not just players on the forums that are upset by this change. Players on the subreddit, the chans, and The Balance Discord are upset as well. Not only is the class losing more of its identity in favor of mindless Shinten spam, it's also losing synergy with classes that line up with it during raid buff windows. DRGs, BRDs, and DNCs especially will not want to be in a group with a class that does not help their own DPS contribution.

You say you hated what they did to SAM in SHB, but yet you fail to understand what consequences this is going to have on the class and party makeup as a whole. If you're fine with homogenization, then so be it. However, don't be disingenuous and say our concerns are not important when you yourself seem to know little.

[Leemon]

As petty as it is, this proposed change has killed my motivation to play the game... And if I don't want to play my favorite DPS, how do I justify playing the others?

I'll almost certainly unsub until 6.2 or 6.3 if Hissatsu: Kaiten is removed

Nothing's petty about it and hey, more power to you. If they can say 'Oh your favourite job got gutted? Tough luck, play another job', what's stopping us to say 'Oh my favourite job got gutted? Time to stop playing this game'

You're not alone here, we're all here because we love SAM and the fun of playing it, not just because we have to play a job or any job in this game.

They say the harshest thing you can do to a comedian is to not laugh at their joke. The harshest thing you can do towards this change is to not play this game when the change is applied (which let's be honest, it's already set in stone for now)