Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Derio]

It was just another version of OG Dark Arts thats all. We knew it was coming. Just like next expansion they are going to go after Sage Eukrasia

[YukiB]

It was just another version of OG Dark Arts thats all. We knew it was coming. Just like next expansion they are going to go after Sage Eukrasia

I find it funny when people compare Kaiten to Dark Arts as if that's an excuse to remove it.

As if Dark Knight isn't currently having the biggest identity crisis of any job at the moment, because they no longer have a job-defining skill like Dark Arts.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I find it funny when people compare Kaiten to Dark Arts as if that's an excuse to remove it.

As if Dark Knight isn't currently having the biggest identity crisis of any job at the moment, because they no longer have a job-defining skill like Dark Arts.

I don't think it was the removal of dark arts that left DRK without a job identity. It was the removal of... Everything else.

[Enjuden]

It was just another version of OG Dark Arts thats all. We knew it was coming. Just like next expansion they are going to go after Sage Eukrasia

Sounds like someone has no idea what they are talking about.

[Larirawiel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=502gpaH-zNE

Lucy Pyre has made a video about it ^^


Cheers

[SeverianLyonesse]

Random aside:

I like how Sage plays, but flavorfully *why* did it need to be the Dark Arts job? Why tf do we need to Eukrasia (lit. "good health") abilities that are already laser-charged with healing medicine? I guess a "laser-charging" gimmick is fine, I just don't think it is communicated especially well in the job's flavor.

On topic: I am sad to see Kaiten go. SAM and RDM are absolutely the Mystic Knight and Rune Fencer of the jobs (since DRK lost Dark Arts), and I don't want the devs to chip away their identities just to throw in a third? fourth? half-baked attempt at a Spellblade job. There are so many other jobs I would prefer over a sixth sword-magey job (seventh if you count NIN).

[Xenon_S]

Reposting a short version of my main thread.

Instead of bickering about subjective measures such as aesthetics or depths of the skill, let's examine Kaiten with the scope of Action Bloat in mind using CPM as metric.

In 4.x, Samurai use Hagakure to eat Sen and spam more shinten, Kaiten is not action bloat
In 5.x, standard 1 min rotation uses 4 Kaiten per min, no compaints to Kaiten being action bloat.
In 6.0, Meikyo charge adds 1 extra Kaiten on opener, and Ogi 1 extra kaiten every 2 mins.

In ShB E12S P1, top 3 SAM had CPM of 47.6, 47.8, and 47.1
In EW P4S P2, top 3 SAM had CPM of 46.1, 45.3, and 46.1

Top P4S P2 log had 33 cast of Kaiten on 6:43 kill, that's 4.9 CPM. That's equivalent to 660 Kenki or 26.4 Shiten Casts, which is 3.93 CPM. It is barely a change, and EW SAM already has lower CPM than ShB SAM, the action bloat arugment does not stand.

No Action Bloat = No need to remove Kaiten.

[KokaSokaLoka]

Reposting a short version of my main thread.

Instead of bickering about subjective measures such as aesthetics or depths of the skill, let's examine Kaiten with the scope of Action Bloat in mind using CPM as metric.

In 4.x, Samurai use Hagakure to eat Sen and spam more shinten, Kaiten is not action bloat
In 5.x, standard 1 min rotation uses 4 Kaiten per min, no compaints to Kaiten being action bloat.
In 6.0, Meikyo charge adds 1 extra Kaiten on opener, and Ogi 1 extra kaiten every 2 mins.

In ShB E12S P1, top 3 SAM had CPM of 47.6, 47.8, and 47.1
In EW P4S P2, top 3 SAM had CPM of 46.1, 45.3, and 46.1

Top P4S P2 log had 33 cast of Kaiten on 6:43 kill, that's 4.9 CPM. That's equivalent to 660 Kenki or 26.4 Shiten Casts, which is 3.93 CPM. It is barely a change, and EW SAM already has lower CPM than ShB SAM, the action bloat arugment does not stand.

No Action Bloat = No need to remove Kaiten.

I do think class flavor is an important discussion, lest we just play a game where we tpose and attack an image of a boss. But thank you for putting into hard numbers what I've been thinking. None of the cited reasons from the devs actually solve what they're trying to fix. If CPM is an issue MCH, DRK, GNB, and AST are all sweating. Every person I've talked to who thinks they'll press less buttons has completely forgotten that you'll go from pressing Kaiten to pressing Shinten. The class will be just as busy but without the kenki management because there's no punishment for using it all. It also tells us that they don't plan on adding anything back because that would add more actions, so this is a plain over-simplification of the class.

Same with the crits - if the difference between the highest direct critical hit and the regular hit is so large then the answer was to reduce the potency of midare/ogi namikiri and spread the potency around the kit. Instead they just indirectly nerfed SCH/DRG/DNC and sorta kinda BRD. It feels like they looked at SAM in a vacuum and made changes without thinking about party composition. To be honest, from what I've seen from top logs is that the difference isn't that large. When you see a difference in the amounts of 300-500 dps it's because the higher dps crit an ungodly high amount, like of course the person who crits 70% of their midares and kaeshi setsugekkas is going to do a boatload more damage than the person who crit 20%. That 70% is nigh unattainable, an outlier, and should barely be considered when balancing the class.

[Xenon_S]

I do think class flavor is an important discussion, lest we just play a game where we tpose and attack an image of a boss. But thank you for putting into hard numbers what I've been thinking. None of the cited reasons from the devs actually solve what they're trying to fix. If CPM is an issue MCH, DRK, GNB, and AST are all sweating. Every person I've talked to who thinks they'll press less buttons has completely forgotten that you'll go from pressing Kaiten to pressing Shinten. The class will be just as busy but without the kenki management because there's no punishment for using it all. It also tells us that they don't plan on adding anything back because that would add more actions, so this is a plain over-simplification of the class.

Same with the crits - if the difference between the highest direct critical hit and the regular hit is so large then the answer was to reduce the potency of midare/ogi namikiri and spread the potency around the kit. Instead they just indirectly nerfed SCH/DRG/DNC and sorta kinda BRD. It feels like they looked at SAM in a vacuum and made changes without thinking about party composition. To be honest, from what I've seen from top logs is that the difference isn't that large. When you see a difference in the amounts of 300-500 dps it's because the higher dps crit an ungodly high amount, like of course the person who crits 70% of their midares and kaeshi setsugekkas is going to do a boatload more damage than the person who crit 20%. That 70% is nigh unattainable, an outlier, and should barely be considered when balancing the class.

I agree that class flavour is important, but it can also be quite a subjective matter. I am a kaiten enthusiast myself, but I consider it a futile attempt to convince another who happens to be in the oppsing camp. So I opt to go for another angle with a more objective metric to support my argument. Not to mention the action bloat issue was the main cited reason in the liveletter, so I thought to address that as well.

[RezPls]

Hi, I've cleared all raid content in the game barring DR Savage (cause no interest in corralling 48 people originally) and I believe that we should reduce all jobs to 1 button.

Ultimate Power (level 1):
Deals an unaspected potency attack of 99k potency every 60 seconds for 12 minutes.
Heals all players in the party by 10k potency every 10s for 12 minutes.
Causes the player to suffer 10% of incoming damage for the next 12 minutes.

With the ultimate QoL change occurring at the harrowing level 10 (to help alleviate anxiety when using duty finder) a trait.

The Blessing Of Light (level 10):
The Ultimate Power will be automatically activated upon entering the Duty Finder and duration removed.


This will effectively remove all of that nasty button bloat so I can be focused on more important things when playing FFXIV like activating gpose, chatting with friends in the duty and in my countless Lalafel and Hrothgar love advocacy linkshells, and of course letting me relax and watch television to help ease my crippling anxiety I feel when I am perceived by other living beings.

edit: I have a feeling the 12 minute duration on the initial action might be too short for balance so the devs might need to increase or remove the duration on the base skill.