P1N Warrior solo kill

[Arckrin]

IMO, I think the main thing being argued for here is for Healers to at the very least not be rendered redundant in current content. They've already had large chunks of their kits removed (or in WHM's case didn't have much left even before SHB)... .

You should read what I say before in this post before answer me this. So at LEAST, you know my idea when I say they remove Protect, StoneSkin. as an example... And NO this change the fact that Healers already contribute with 1 skill the same amount DPS as a tank while having shields, regens and Cures. And then people asking more Gear xD Funny hilarious DPS mentality is nuts and that is why they downscale everything.

Tanks don't deserve more DPS either, they should really have less because so many of them can't perform their role properly and are unable to mitigate. ...

Did I say that? Well tanks shouldn't do same amount of damage than a DPS and healers either… and if you look funny things back PLD got 3 rotations combos Rage of Halone, Gorging Blade and Royal Authority, merge in 2. So, they put blades rotation (on a none sense Magic rotation sequence ending). They remove the punishment of been in tank stance and put on passive skill. Also, some mitigation skills on that were cross-class. But people complain "why tanks should be punished. I prefer be in Sword Oath for deeps. :v" So basically comment the opposite of BancoBits.

Yes they do need more damage buttons. ...

No they don't need more damage buttons, what they need are more different kind of utilities and with that devs. Create content that they can actually feel useful and at same time u can't clear without a healer. Different proposal, but not the same.

Or tell me where goes the Casting. speed Skill Speed cards of the AST? Oh, no wait I know where they go NOW ALL ARE CRITS AND DPS! This solves the issue? NO? oh, wait Devs. downscale because HP pull is bigger… and cheese melding dungeons high dps issue... And now people didn't learn the lesson and ask more DPS more damage skills More mitigation.

Did you know that that is why we have glamour, right? Oh, no wait it is because you want actually to Cure in a heavy gear True, true.

for u 3.

Asking for more of the same problem and not proposal ANYTHING different from DPS because is the only thing they care DPS mentality, which I don't give a #$%. I want to have fun playing my PLD but as result ask any other PLD with this nonsense rotation we have skipping 1 Atun and other stuff, and even with that u lose your raid buffs potential.

As I said we should find a balance, and sorry, but that balance is NOT only raising potencies of any skill more. Certain jobs should be balance, this will lead to reduce some and increase others, and create or get back utilities that can be use on dungeons/trials/raids that max the winning of fun and not only be DPS talking.

[BaconBits]

You should read what I say before in this post before answer me this. So at LEAST, you know my idea when I say they remove Protect, StoneSkin. as an example... And NO this change the fact that Healers already contribute with 1 skill the same amount DPS as a tank while having shields, regens and Cures. And then people asking more Gear xD Funny hilarious DPS mentality is nuts and that is why they downscale everything.



Did I say that? Well tanks shouldn't do same amount of damage than a DPS and healers either… and if you look funny things back PLD got 3 rotations combos Rage of Halone, Gorging Blade and Royal Authority, merge in 2. So, they put blades rotation (on a none sense Magic rotation sequence ending). They remove the punishment of been in tank stance and put on passive skill. Also, some mitigation skills on that were cross-class. But people complain "why tanks should be punished. I prefer be in Sword Oath for deeps. :v" So basically comment the opposite of BancoBits.



No they don't need more damage buttons, what they need are more different kind of utilities and with that devs. Create content that they can actually feel useful and at same time u can't clear without a healer. Different proposal, but not the same.

Or tell me where goes the Casting. speed Skill Speed cards of the AST? Oh, no wait I know where they go NOW ALL ARE CRITS AND DPS! This solves the issue? NO? oh, wait Devs. downscale because HP pull is bigger… and cheese melding dungeons high dps issue... And now people didn't learn the lesson and ask more DPS more damage skills More mitigation.

Did you know that that is why we have glamour, right? Oh, no wait it is because you want actually to Cure in a heavy gear True, true.

for u 3.

Asking for more of the same problem and not proposal ANYTHING different from DPS because is the only thing they care DPS mentality, which I don't give a #$%. I want to have fun playing my PLD but as result ask any other PLD with this nonsense rotation we have skipping 1 Atun and other stuff, and even with that u lose your raid buffs potential.

As I said we should find a balance, and sorry, but that balance is NOT only raising potencies of any skill more. Certain jobs should be balance, this will lead to reduce some and increase others, and create or get back utilities that can be use on dungeons/trials/raids that max the winning of fun and not only be DPS talking.

Uh uh, I read your little spiel on how Healers don't deserve more than one dps skill because you ran into some bad apples in Party Finder, and discarded your opinion into the trash where it belongs, hence the big fat bale of hay I lead my post off with. With your line of logic, bad tanks that don't know how to properly mitigate or rotate their cooldowns should have their DPS options reduced to spamming a single skill ad nauseam so they can actually focus on using their cooldowns. Sounds fair right? Right?

[Arckrin]

Uh uh, I read your little spiel on how Healers don't deserve more than one dps skill because you ran into some bad apples in Party Finder, and discarded your opinion into the trash where it belongs, hence the big fat bale of hay I lead my post off with. With your line of logic, bad tanks that don't know how to properly mitigate or rotate their cooldowns should have their DPS options reduced to spamming a single skill ad nauseam so they can actually focus on using their cooldowns. Sounds fair right? Right?

See what I mean?

"discarded your opinion into the trash where it belongs" You are the typical person that Says “I AM CORRECT AND YOUR OPINION IS TRASH” And then ask for respect from others when you don't respect what they are saying… Oh! And you magically put words that I didn't say or think… XD

Should I say it in other words? May be like this?

We NEED to BALANCE the trinity system! But balance doesn't mean doing it around DPS metric due to the same problem we are facing now. Don't you see that THAT IS WHY the downscale? It is hard to understand? More DPS doesn't mean = GOOD or BAD?

Want a history lesson of what since HW 2015 to now days balance around DPS has rip of interesting skills?
Or are you too new that don't know about the history of healers/tanks skills and says "who cares" and keep asking DEEPS... because is what others are asking?

[Nizzi]

Did I say that? Well tanks shouldn't do same amount of damage than a DPS and healers either… and if you look funny things back PLD got 3 rotations combos Rage of Halone, Gorging Blade and Royal Authority, merge in 2. So, they put blades rotation (on a none sense Magic rotation sequence ending).

Cool, but you really don't need any of that. I see so many tanks, Paladins especially that have 0 clue how to hit any of their mitigation buttons, and that's what you're here to do. You don't need 2 rotations, that's DPS bloat and prevents you from focusing on what you need to be doing, which is tanking. So really, they should reduce all tanks DPS rotation to 1 DoT and their enmity generator (Shield Lob, Grit, etc) and that's all you should have. You're not here to do DPSing, if you want to DPS you should go play a DPS. You're playing a TANK, so get to TANKING.

I want to have fun playing my PLD but as result ask any other PLD with this nonsense rotation we have skipping 1 Atun and other stuff, and even with that u lose your raid buffs potential.

Cool, you can have just as much fun playing your PLD when we strip out all that unneeded DPS bloat you have. You need to focus on tanking, so we'll give you more mitigation.
I'm sure you definitely think it's different for you and you'll go through the mental gymnastics of justifying why you're allowed to have fun and healers aren't, but I hope you can understand why what you're saying is nonsense. Healers aren't your enemy. Just because you get random healers that are bad, that's all it means. You ran into a bad player. I get tons of tanks who randomly turn off their tank stance, never use mitigations, single target trash mobs, etc, and I'm not saying you shouldn't get to have fun. Understand the double standard.

[Arckrin]

Cool, but you really don't need any of that. I see so many tanks, Paladins especially that have 0 clue how to hit any of their mitigation buttons, and that's what you're here to do. You don't need 2 rotations, that's DPS bloat and prevents you from focusing on what you need to be doing, which is tanking. So really, they should reduce all tanks DPS rotation to 1 DoT and their enmity generator (Shield Lob, Grit, etc) and that's all you should have. You're not here to do DPSing, if you want to DPS you should go play a DPS. You're playing a TANK, so get to TANKING.



Cool, you can have just as much fun playing your PLD when we strip out all that unneeded DPS bloat you have. You need to focus on tanking, so we'll give you more mitigation.
I'm sure you definitely think it's different for you and you'll go through the mental gymnastics of justifying why you're allowed to have fun and healers aren't, but I hope you can understand why what you're saying is nonsense. Healers aren't your enemy. Just because you get random healers that are bad, that's all it means. You ran into a bad player. I get tons of tanks who randomly turn off their tank stance, never use mitigations, single target trash mobs, etc, and I'm not saying you shouldn't get to have fun. Understand the double standard.

Look, I agree partially with you, and I am not discussing that they should do more DPS… Yet again, as I told BaconBits… that He/She wanted more dps skills on healer, and they are doing near the same output as Tanks with 1 skill… They SHOULD balance the content, not around the DPS meter. But around more other stuff (strategical example).

The thing as an example of my rotation is to illustrate the point, I agree partially about what you are saying. Because as a tank I should be paying more attention to around the environment and the boss skills, position (so all have room), mitigation, HP than my output of DPSing. And as I say yesterday here (page 19) "...People who know me knows… I prefer been the best tanky Def and be able to easy to heal to my healer, and of course put deeps on the enemies. I don't want to be the squishy tank butter that be sliced into with 1 hit."

Why is hard to understand that I don't want the OP tank Option... I don't know were you get that impression...?

Edit: Also I don't want the GOD HEALER option like in ShB that only use 4 skills on dungeon and half tools on Hard End content.

[Nizzi]

Look, I agree partially with you, and I am not discussing that they should do more DPS… Yet again, as I told BaconBits… that He/She wanted more dps skills on healer, and they are doing near the same output as Tanks with 1 skill… They SHOULD balance the content, not around the DPS meter. But around more other stuff (strategical example).

The thing as an example of my rotation is to illustrate the point, I agree partially about what you are saying. Because as a tank I should be paying more attention to around the environment and the boss skills, position (so all have room), mitigation, HP than my output of DPSing. And as I say yesterday here (page 19) "...People who know me knows… I prefer been the best tanky Def and be able to easy to heal to my healer, and of course put deeps on the enemies. I don't want to be the squishy tank butter that be sliced into with 1 hit."

You're misunderstanding what I and other healers are saying. We're not saying we want to do "higher numbers" in regards to talking about our DPS. We don't want to be overpowered with our DPS numbers. We're saying it's not fun to hit 1-1-1 over and over and twice a minute hitting our DoT as all we're allowed to do when there's no healing required (and there's a lot of that even in Savage). It's boring. Of course you can say that the solution is to make it where we need to heal more, and I don't think any healer disagrees necessarily, but realistically it will be easier to give us more to do during our downtime than it would to retune all content across the game to require more healing.
I've posted in this thread about how I don't want to nerf the tanks new sustain and healing capability. I'm glad that tanks are enjoying it and having fun, but compare that to what we all got this expansion; more bloated heals we don't need, and EW removed what little thought SCH and WHM had to do for thinking about when they healed.

I don't want to take away your fun or sustainability, though I know some do because it takes away our ability to heal. The problem isn't the tanks having their new tools, it's the fact that it further invalidates what they continually promise healers. We complain about not having fun in our downtime and the developers say "we're making things hit harder this expac, you'll need to heal more! That's why your single target rotation is 2-1-1-1" and we're in the same song and dance where we see that's not the case and healing is further invalidated and we're needed even less.

As for what they can do, just redistribute the potency of healers DPS actions across their wider variety of DPS actions. It would be more fun to manage two 35 potency DoTs with two separate timers than it is to have one 70 potency DoT of 30 seconds. I made a thread on the healer roles forum about how just adding Miasma back would make Scholar feel way better to play if you're actually curious of ideas on what they could do to make it more fun for us.

We're not asking for gigabrain complexity, we're not asking to do more damage, we're asking to have fun.

[Arckrin]

You're misunderstanding what I and other healers are saying. We're not saying we want to do "higher numbers" in regards to talking about our DPS. We don't want to be overpowered with our DPS numbers. We're saying it's not fun to hit 1-1-1 over and over and twice a minute hitting our DoT as all we're allowed to do when there's no healing required (and there's a lot of that even in Savage). It's boring. Of course you can say that the solution is to make it where we need to heal more, and I don't think any healer disagrees necessarily, but realistically it will be easier to give us more to do during our downtime than it would to retune all content across the game to require more healing.

I don't want to take away your fun or sustainability, though I know some do because it takes away our ability to heal. The problem isn't the tanks having their new tools, it's the fact that it further invalidates what they continually promise healers. We complain about not having fun in our downtime and the developers say "we're making things hit harder this expac, you'll need to heal more! That's why your single target rotation is 2-1-1-1" and we're in the same song and dance where we see that's not the case and healing is further invalidated and we're needed even less.

As for what they can do, just redistribute the potency of healers DPS actions across their wider variety of DPS actions. It would be more fun to manage two 35 potency DoTs with two separate timers than it is to have one 70 potency DoT of 30 seconds. I made a thread on the healer roles forum about how just adding Miasma back would make Scholar feel way better to play if you're actually curious of ideas on what they could do to make it more fun for us.
.

Yet you don't get the point of what I am saying… you are asking to put more DPS skills on the healers. And I am saying I agree to put MORE Skills for the healer but NOT for DPS or HEAL! Which is why I liked the Old AST card system because I could buff the party while all people when MAX heal. Now they turned only on which card I withdraw, wait a DPS card for melee! let's shuffle Oh DPS card just for casters. Which is Why I am giving a try to the SAGE this expansion to see what tools they got. (As a tank I see the healer as my co-worker trusty one, not as an intruder as u mention)

Yet again is a thing of BALANCE, and it is because devs. got RIP skills from healers that were more kinda fun to play with and give it entertain to the job. Look as tank I don't want to be the GOD tank okay? I want to survive, yes... but not without the help of my healer mate. And Also, can WE agree that healers need something to do? I am tired to repeat my self yes they NEED SKILLS and NO, NOT in DPS side just another subsystem side like old AST.

I am totally fine with asking skills and a way to feel the empty that healers are lacking, 'cause also I had my Healer side… If I don't play tank, I play healer or Dragoon.

[Nizzi]

snip

At the end of the day, what seems more reasonable? That they dedicate a lot of hours of developer time to design support systems for each healer that are fun to manage while also being unique, or they restore older systems/unprune DPS actions? The latter requires less dev time as the actions, animations and abilities are mostly in the game already for jobs that previously had them like Scholar. As much as you say you don't want to be a "GOD tank" and that you want the help of your healer, look at all the sustain and heals the tanks have gotten this expansion and see that what you're asking for is more work than what we're asking for. What you're suggesting would require complete redesigns of all four healer kits, retuning of all four tanks and also retuning encounter design to make up for this buff/support system to deal with during downtime. What we're suggesting would just require them to redistribute the potency of our nukes into a few more actions and things could continue as normal.

Of course it would be nice to completely redesign all 4 healers to be fun in a way that doesn't require us to push DPS. But encounters are specifically tuned with healer DPS in mind; it was impossible to clear E8S back in ShB without healer DPS. Given that, it seems more pertinent to ask for our jobs to have more to do what we're required by the fights to do when we don't need to heal, which is quite often. Bad healers will always exist; this is not and is never a good justification for our role spamming 1 button for most of an encounter.

[Arckrin]

At the end of the day, what seems more reasonable? That they dedicate a lot of hours of developer time to design support systems for each healer that are fun to manage while also being unique, or they restore older systems/unprune DPS actions? The latter requires less dev time as the actions, animations and abilities are mostly in the game already for jobs that previously had them like Scholar. As much as you say you don't want to be a "GOD tank" and that you want the help of your healer, look at all the sustain and heals the tanks have gotten this expansion and see that what you're asking for is more work than what we're asking for. What you're suggesting would require complete redesigns of all four healer kits, retuning of all four tanks and also retuning encounter design to make up for this buff/support system to deal with during downtime. What we're suggesting would just require them to redistribute the potency of our nukes into a few more actions and things could continue as normal.

Of course it would be nice to completely redesign all 4 healers to be fun in a way that doesn't require us to push DPS. But encounters are specifically tuned with healer DPS in mind; it was impossible to clear E8S back in ShB without healer DPS. Given that, it seems more pertinent to ask for our jobs to have more to do what we're required by the fights to do when we don't need to heal, which is quite often. Bad healers will always exist; this is not and is never a good justification for our role spamming 1 button for most of an encounter.

I got what you are saying but "convenience in short term" is a bandage of a big hole bleeding which that is why I say, and you seem to agree… I am just saying that right now it is the best opportunity is because they downscale the system and and they are working on the new story so, as dev point of view u have more time for think about the jobs.

[Recon1o6]

snip.

Let me break down what healers are wanting since you're clearly not understanding it and have either never played a healer for any length of time or looked at the healer forums

1. More damage buttons. Same overall damage potential but spread over more buttons. Give us a skill ceiling and something fun to do during the ridiculous amounts of time we don't need to heal.
So where we might press glare/malefic/broil/dosis 20 times, make us have to press 3 or 4, juggling more dots or combos, procs, ANYTHING for the same amount of damage
2. Make everything hit harder so we're not irrelevant in so much content. Make our bloated healer kits useful and neccessary as approrpiate to the difficulty.
3. Trim those bloated healing kits. Cure 1, benefic 1, physick have no place once you hit level 40 ish for example.
4. Bring back all the fun bits of healers that have been taken away. Ast's cards and time shenanigans. Whm's self buffing and crowd control. Sch's debuffing and selene in her entirety