P1N Warrior solo kill

[KariTheFox]

Sounds like tanks are well designed and actually fun to play and healers need to be reworked, then.

[Arckrin]

Look... I have been playing during all these expansions and following… First, they make kinda “easier” to tank (some options I agree due to some mechanics of some bosses) others not.

The concept of healing through damage is fine, we have seen other MMORPGs, but the thing is balance. You lost HP and You are trying to get back hitting, and u should need external help on these situations.

On PLD case, you are quitting damage to regen your hp (since it is supposed MMORPGs take PLD as a combination of defensive melee with white magic FF lore wise).

The DRK in HW, if you spent your MP with darkside to keep hitting regen MP also, and your final rotation actually eat or drain hp was due to the drk vampire soul concept. (too bad they change, they revamped, lost his identity).

Now of the last tank GNB, it is a Magic shield tank and through this regen the hp.

Every tank has a concept of mitigation and a form of get back the HP, the situation is NOT about take those tools out… it is to balance and do the content for it. In ARR, HW, SB I could solo duties as a PLD, and in ShB some duties u wipe because of the stack mechanics, but others can be solo-able (4 party members).

The point here is that they remove skills like Protect, Stoneskin that u yes or yes needed to wait healer to put to run the duty, that was kinda cool utility of the healers. Also, we have bulked since then into DPS, DPS… People who know me knows… I prefer been the best tanky Def and be able to easy to heal to my healer, and of course put deeps on the enemies. I don't want to be the squishy tank butter that be sliced into with 1 hit. But at least if I receive a hit and I forgot the CD don't punish me with the dead (more dmg yes, but no dead). Trinity system is fine ONLY if you don't focus just in DPS and make actually jobs useful on put side status, for example the old BRD with the regen MP utility or TP (RIP).

We are in lvl 90, Supposedly we get complicated status not remove from the player. People forgot that warrior was punished with pacification… Or rip Slice, Crash, or Pierce status… (mobs still can do it). Who use Sleep skill in dungeon... No one because of the chesse melding mobs… Come on, there are full potential to return some nice mechs that people can use if the dungeon is required to do it. Someone /comfort on Lost city of Amdapor?…

I am tired of this discussion about up DPS or Nerf these skills of tanks… Clearly When HW to SB pass we see a tendency to focus ALL on DPS and lead dev team to put astronomically HP pool on bosses.

And now, that we got downscale the things… upping again stats because they are not doing the same damage/heal as their counterparts, it is useless.

That doesn't mean we don't need to balance the content and the jobs, and wanted or NOT this will lead us to nerf and up some.

If we continue like that… this will lead us to another 10 years of increasing with NONE SENSE again the status and downscale again… (vicious circle).

[J-Reyno]

Healer:
> Decent damage? PREPOSTEROUS! You're the giggling one in the white dress, you can't attack things!

This hysteria has y'all in a grip.

Healers do more than half the damage of dps jobs and nearly the same amount of damage as tanks by spamming 1 1 1 1 1 repeatedly. Healers can do a ton of damage, especially considering the minimal effort required.

By the numbers healers in this game are crazy strong. The role just needs more damage abilities and at least some semblance of a damage rotation.

[Shurrikhan]

Healers can do a ton of damage, especially considering the minimal effort required.

Merely "more than half" is hardly "a ton of damage", and the same posts/threads asking for more damage typically ask that more than the present minimal effort be involved in healers' damage-dealing.

[Semirhage]

This hysteria has y'all in a grip.

Healers do more than half the damage of dps jobs and nearly the same amount of damage as tanks by spamming 1 1 1 1 1 repeatedly. Healers can do a ton of damage, especially considering the minimal effort required.

By the numbers healers in this game are crazy strong. The role just needs more damage abilities and at least some semblance of a damage rotation.

And yet healers aren't allowed to do as much damage as tanks, because that would be too much. And more damage abilities with a semblance of a rotation? Where have you been? Healers have been rage-begging for something to do since Stormblood (Shadowbringers for AST and SCH), and Square Enix either ignores our questions or replies with "But we can't give you more to do because it's our opinion that healers are too stupid to handle more, please enjoy spamming the 1 key more".

Meanwhile Square still has a track record of immediately hotfixing anything that allows players to do content without a tank, and shrugs when the same happens without healers. Because there's a blatant double standard.

[J-Reyno]

And yet healers aren't allowed to do as much damage as tanks, because that would be too much.

Tanks can't heal the entire party from 1hp to full health in a matter of seconds. Tanks do not have nearly as much party mitigation as healers who can chuck aoe shields and mitigation on demand without waiting for long cooldowns. Tanks cannot revive downed party members.

Healers can do more than half the damage of a dps job while no dps job comes even close to the amount of healing that healers have. Same for tanks. Even WAR's healing output is nothing compared to healers, and definitely not nearly as close as healer dps is to tanks.

If we look at damage and healing together, healers contribute MUCH more than every other role and it's not even close. Why SHOULD they also do as much or more damage than any other role when they already have the greatest contribution in the party and are putting out very near the same amount of damage as tanks in the first place?

The one area where the tank role sits well and clear above healer is personal survivability/mitigation. Shocker, I know. It has MUCH less healing power, MUCH less party mitigation, NO ability to revive whatsoever and a bit more damage. I'm going to repeat myself and say that by the numbers healers in this game are crazy strong. Not being able to do everything that a tank can do doesn't change that.

[Recon1o6]

snip

You're missing the point. All that so called power is worthless because CONTENT DOESNT REQUIRE IT.

Healers have complained for years that healing is far too easy To the point that savages and ultimates are being completed without them with increasingly regularity across multiple expansions

Yet SE STILL thinks "Pure healers" is what healing should be. They backpedalled on that MT/OT idea swiftly, but this regen/barrier healer split or the terrible direction they taken healing in is ok? Its not and this thread is the latest in a line of threads from the healer forums pointing out with lots of evidence why healers feel treated as 3rd class players.
The only reason this thread is even here on the tank forums is because the mods didn't bother looking at the thread, only the title.

Here's something interesting: the current top rated question in the live letter thread is a question I put on behalf of healers asking if they are going to change this terrible stance they have towards healing. If thats not a symptom of how shit healers are then what is?

The sheer volume of poor healers is because all the good healers have quit the role in disgust at:

-being made irrelevant by low levels of damage to the point content doesn't increasingly require them
-having terrible homogenous kits that are blatantly overpowered for healing
-having terrible 2, 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... approach to doing damage despite all evidence to the contrary pointing out that more damage buttons is better
-constantly being given scraps from gear design. Its robes, coats or bust. Judge drace's awesome armour and cape? cant have that! we'll make it a frilly dress.
-SE lying and ignoring feedback for years on end about the poor direction for healing
-The dps or bust driven to the point healers only get scraps from savage loot, meaning they are often last if at all to get gear

and more

[Arckrin]

You're missing the point. All that so called power is worthless because CONTENT DOESNT REQUIRE IT.

Healers have complained for years that healing is far too easy To the point that savages and ultimates are being completed without them with increasingly regularity across multiple expansions

Yet SE STILL thinks "Pure healers" is what healing should be. They backpedalled on that MT/OT idea swiftly, but this regen/barrier healer split or the terrible direction they taken healing in is ok? Its not and this thread is the latest in a line of threads from the healer forums pointing out with lots of evidence why healers feel treated as 3rd class players.
The only reason this thread is even here on the tank forums is because the mods didn't bother looking at the thread, only the title.

Here's something interesting: the current top rated question in the live letter thread is a question I put on behalf of healers asking if they are going to change this terrible stance they have towards healing. If thats not a symptom of how shit healers are then what is?

The sheer volume of poor healers is because all the good healers have quit the role in disgust at:

-being made irrelevant by low levels of damage to the point content doesn't increasingly require them
-having terrible homogenous kits that are blatantly overpowered for healing
-having terrible 2, 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... approach to doing damage despite all evidence to the contrary pointing out that more damage buttons is better
-constantly being given scraps from gear design. Its robes, coats or bust. Judge drace's awesome armour and cape? cant have that! we'll make it a frilly dress.
-SE lying and ignoring feedback for years on end about the poor direction for healing
-The dps or bust driven to the point healers only get scraps from savage loot, meaning they are often last if at all to get gear

and more

While I agree that good healers have quit the role is undeniable, one of my best FC and raider is now DNC, and she was WHM…
Raiding in with random people in PF had showed me healers don't need more damage buttons… why? Simple, because in several runs they were focus on DPS and example easy P1S Ice/fire/death mech, and they were unable to put shield and regen on the party... because they were DPSing... My friend and I that we have WHM and SAGE up says dude if this continues we switch to healer…
So answer is NO healers don't need more buttons for DPS because with 1 they already became a green DPS without healing the party I don't want to imagine with 2 or 3…

Plus they are casters... what do you expect? A heavy armour on them? a light armour?

[Ixon]

You're missing the point. All that so called power is worthless because CONTENT DOESNT REQUIRE IT.

Some content, not all. A large issue comes from some of the fight designs being undertuned. Even most tanks roll through most normal raid content only pressing one or two defensive GCD's. However in the savage fights and especially the later floors, the healing there IS required, which I assume is by design. Why do you think there is no enrage on normal fights? SE most likely designed it that was so if I get queued with freestyle DPS and no DPS Cure 1 healers we can still clear the fight. The EX's being cleared healerless to me is an undertuned fight, which it was. There were what, like 4 scary AoEs in all of EX1? Though again, that might be by design. It's not like Innocence or Titania were crazy difficult.

To your other points:
- I don't see where healers are made irrelevant in Savage content, and healers being irrelevant in normal modes shouldn't matter(I've already mentioned the EX's were undertuned). Besides, well tuned groups cut out a tank or a healer from speed runs all the time because at the end of the day the only thing that matters is damage. Hell, I've done 4 DPS dungeon runs for fun, nothing really matters in a majority of content.
- Everyone's kit is homogenized. Ever seen a tanks kit? And again, most tank and healer kits are overpowered for most normal fights.
- Button spam is probably boring, but you have to account for button bloat. So to add dps options you have to take away healing options, and which do you take away? Though I do think they did well in this regard with Sage, it will just take some dev cycles to bring the others up to that level.
- I swear Tanks have more skirts than healers lol. And it's not like they are singling people out. Healers, Casters, and Ranged wear the light stuff, melee the medium, tanks the heavy. It's a game design choice standard to most trinity games.
-"SE lying and ignoring feedback for years on end about the"- *insert literally anything you want here.
- DPS or bust has been the name of the game since Alexander, tanks get the scraps too.

Again, I am in no way saying things couldn't be better, I just don't believe it is as much of a catastrophe as people make it to be. Tune the fights better to utilize kits to a percentage equal to their difficulty, like force 50% kit usage in normal cause it's normal and 75%-90% in Savage, 110% in Ultimates. Add a slightly more in-depth dps rotation that doens't bloat the jobs but doesn't also make them clunky when trying to do the healing part of content(Or give them a 1-2-3 combo that breaks on gcd heals for all I care lol).

[BaconBits]

While I agree that good healers have quit the role is undeniable, one of my best FC and raider is now DNC, and she was WHM…
Raiding in with random people in PF had showed me healers don't need more damage buttons… why? Simple, because in several runs they were focus on DPS and example easy P1S Ice/fire/death mech, and they were unable to put shield and regen on the party... because they were DPSing... My friend and I that we have WHM and SAGE up says dude if this continues we switch to healer…
So answer is NO healers don't need more buttons for DPS because with 1 they already became a green DPS without healing the party I don't want to imagine with 2 or 3…

Plus they are casters... what do you expect? A heavy armour on them? a light armour?

IMO, I think the main thing being argued for here is for Healers to at the very least not be rendered redundant in current content. They've already had large chunks of their kits removed (or in WHM's case didn't have much left even before SHB) so seeing things like level cap dungeons being speedrun by WAR + 3 DPS, current EXs, Savage floors, and even Ultimates being cleared without a healer in sight, it's like throwing salt into an open wound.

Then there's the Healer gameplay loop that somehow manages to get worse the better you and your party becomes. Once you've got your healing/mitigation optimized and your party members are no longer eating unnecessary damage, that leaves you with hitting Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis until you need to refresh your single dot, then repeat until the boss is dead. A change brought about by SHB that I'd like to think no Healer worth their salt was asking for.

The way I see it, SE can go either one of two ways. Either increase the amount of outgoing damage so Healers aren't being rendered obsolete in current content so frequently (which won't happen any time soon, let's be real), or give Healers more things to do during downtime. Whether it be buffing/debuffing or more involved rotations it doesn't matter. Anything more than mindless Glare spam will do.