P1N Warrior solo kill

[Ixon]

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For all you say, I still have no idea what you want to be done. Do you want every single piece of content to be solo-able by everyone? Or people so nerfed it can't be solo'd by anyone? Do you want fights changed or jobs? What are you asking for? Cause certain jobs being able to do X happens in all content, in every game, all the time. You are playing this victim card like you and healers like you are being targeted and treated unfairly.

Again, it's not like the fights are designed to completely remove healers, but you make it seem like it is. The fact that any current fight can be cleared without a healer is an oversight at the very least. What I find funny is the tanks weren't the main reason why the two EX's were cleared without a healer, it was a mixture of Reaper and Dancer healing kits to keep the dps alive enough to meet the DPS check. Because if it was any other dps comp besides Reapers and Dancers, too many DPS would have died and they would have enraged.

So I'm going to ask for probably the fourth time in this thread: why are tanks allowed to flip the concept of teamwork or the trinity the bird

To answer: No tank asked SE to be the only one to solo content(even though WAR has been able to solo content since HW, it's not like this is news), and to answer your other question, no tank would give any though if a fight could be cleared without a tank. Not a one would care. The sole reason why it's not a thought in the world for current content is SOLELY because Tank Busters exist in every. single. fight. There is no if, ands, or buts about it. There are solo tank/solo heal clears of P1S, and there are also DPS deaths due to not being able to work around the tank busters. So if you are asking for a mandatory healer mechanic to be copy/pasted into every fight so you have to take a healer no matter what, be my guest.

That's an issue entirely separate from the laughable idea earlier in the thread that healers "should" do less damage than tanks because their contribution is "more valuable", when literally every single piece of evidence in content as designed shows that healers are the LEAST valuable members of any given party.

I don't know if this is news to you, but healers and tanks are always the first to be cut, it's just that tanks are cut less due to unavoidable tank busters that would result in the death of a dps or healer if not for two tanks. Here is another thing, every non standard kill is either for fun, or for a challenge, and that's it. A majority of the time, they are so un-optimal that once they are proven that they can be done they are hardly re-done as they are usually so un-optimal to do so. You say healers are the LEAST valuable, when if chosen, 99% of players would sacrifice a tank or dps before a healer. Most wipes happen from all healers being dead and the damage killing the party. So I really don't know why you downplay such an important role.

[Deceptus]

"Please post all the no healer no tank clears of any current savage floor.

That's essentially the point of this entire thread.

That tanks are essentially Gods right now. They can cover every single role and have no weaknesses other than content takes them a bit longer to do on their own.

No other Role can say that.

Raids... I also disagree on. They're optional content. They aren't required to progress the MSQ.

There is still good story content / lore behind the raids. Just sayin'. So they should at least be engaging.

[Alzinor]

That's essentially the point of this entire thread.

That tanks are essentially Gods right now. They can cover every single role and have no weaknesses other than content takes them a bit longer to do on their own.

No other Role can say that.



There is still good story content / lore behind the raids. Just sayin'. So they should at least be engaging.

Welcome to FF XIV my friend, you've finally discovered tank role.

ofc tank can do content alone and no other role can do that (yet ?) it doesn't mean they're OP, it only mean the fight are bad designed and can be cheesed by a single role. The reason why the other role can't solo is because the TB or share or any deadly mechanics with a massive amount of damage which is a good design. Tanks do not care about that and squex didn't add enough mechanics to counter a possible solo.

implement more deadly mechanics like the role one on p4 or more TB with an actual real vuln and i guarantee you won't see any more fight beside dungeons being solo'ed by a tank.



Now if you can show us some real argument beside the common " tank take less damage than healer and dps WTF OP", i'll be glad

Cry about how the actual fight are designed, not about our role unless you have a good reason.

[Shurrikhan]

If you watch the clears, the only job with 100% free sustain is WAR. The PLD had to Clemency(dps loss) and the GNB had to 1-2 Brutal Shell spam(dps loss). Not to mention DRK's TBN is only free if the bubble pops otherwise it's also a dps loss.

We're not talking tank-solos, a form of side content utterly unaccounted for, alone here.
Find me an example of a decent DRK in Savage not popping their bubble. (Good luck; there are none.)
Find me a decent GNB in Savage who only takes their combo as far as Brutal Shell. (Good luck; there are none.)

Until then, the fact that tanks can sacrifice the majority of their damage to spam their combo only up to Brutal Shell for incredibly low returns in any real content has no bearing on the conversation of relative role strength.

ofc tank can do content alone and no other role can do that (yet ?) it doesn't mean they're OP, it only mean the fight are bad designed and can be cheesed by a single role.

If the content can be cheesed only by a single role, Ockham's Razor cuts both ways; the role has as high a chance to be the issue as the content, and correcting the single role's interactions would be the more efficient path to a solution than, by adjusting the content, changing all three roles' interactions with that content.

[Ixon]

That's essentially the point of this entire thread.

That tanks are essentially Gods right now. They can cover every single role and have no weaknesses other than content takes them a bit longer to do on their own.

No other Role can say that.

I don't know know if taking over hour to do a normal fight that has 3 whole mechanics in it that normally takes 6 minutes is "godlike" status. If tanks were so godlike, the standard would be 8 tanks no matter what, but it's not, because it's super suboptimal. I think the only time it was ever the optimal choice was taking 4 WARs to Rathalos EX to reduce wipes.

[ssunny2008]

I don't know know if taking over hour to do a normal fight that has 3 whole mechanics in it that normally takes 6 minutes is "godlike" status. If tanks were so godlike, the standard would be 8 tanks no matter what, but it's not, because it's super suboptimal. I think the only time it was ever the optimal choice was taking 4 WARs to Rathalos EX to reduce wipes.

Having 8 tanks especially WARs IS the optimal choice. No matter what, it´s pretty much impossible to wipe. Hey, there are DPS checks in savage. But in normal? Hell i see more than enough ppl underperforming and dieing, even lately there was a BRD in savage doing less damage than the tanks. So why not playing tanks only with an easy rotation, tons of defs and self-heal? It would be braindead mode.
But of course... there are still some confident players which don´t have to rely on some broken stuff. That´s the only reason why it´s not a thing. Such players prefer to go in with 1-2 tanks and 6 DPS.

[J-Reyno]

Please post the all healer no tank clear of any current savage floor.

Oh you can't? Maybe that's because this game rewards what tanks can do -far more- than it rewards what healers can do.

I'll do that as soon as you show me how gimmick all tank no healer runs have become the standard for the game's content and healers are struggling to find groups because of it.

You can't and you won't.

[Shurrikhan]

Taking an hour to do a fight isn't cheeseing the fight, it's taking the long way to do something very simple for the challenge of it.

Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's ability to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

Again, the head of the conversation (two pages back, though stemming from Semirhage's post on page 18) into which you've inserted yourself was on healer/tank throughput generally, not just in regard to solo clears.

I think the crucial part here is whether Warrior being able to solo something like P1N reduces or increases available content.

A solo run of P1N isn't going to replace a normal, far faster run that Warrior could still get instant queues for almost any time of night. As such, it merely adds a form of side-content. Nor is Warrior so advantaged in that core/real content as to bar other tanks from it, reducing available content for those who want to tank but do not want to play Warrior.

It's a bit odd that said side-content is limited to a single tank, with no other tank having their answer to it or similar advantage in other turns, but that's still more just-for-fun side-content than we had before with no loss to real content or job choice therein.

To consider an opposite example, though, Bloodwhetting's scaling procedure could outright destroy Savage dungeons or the like, if they were a thing, making them (especially, their trash) very difficult to balance for both Warrior and the non-Warrior tanks; if merely challenging for non-Warriors, trash would be pitiful to Warriors, while if trash were challenging even to Warriors, it'd likely wall off many non-Warrior tank players. That'd be something that, contextually (i.e., if SE ever wanted to add content variety beyond GS mini-games), would require fixing. (Even now, Bloodwhetting's AoE scaling is beyond ridiculous -- rather than merely mildly OP, as it was in ShB -- and probably should be reeled back to merely relatively overpowered.)

[Ixon]

Never said it was. I merely pointed out that a single role's to cheese content isn't any more likely to be a problem with content than a problem with that role.

Again, the head of the conversation (two pages back, though stemming from Semirhage's post on page 18) into which you've inserted yourself was on healer/tank throughput generally, not just in regard to solo clears.

That.. doesn't make sense. The ability for any current content for be soleable is almost 100% on the fight. Hence why only SOME of the current content is soleable instead of ALL.

The fight design is the reason why some fights cannot be solo tanked, or solo healed, or whatever.

[Deceptus]

That.. doesn't make sense. The ability for any current content for be soleable is almost 100% on the fight. Hence why only SOME of the current content is soleable instead of ALL.

The fight design is the reason why some fights cannot be solo tanked, or solo healed, or whatever.

If it was a fight design flaw, only being low outgoing damage, then other roles could accomplish it. We don't have that situation on our hands do we?

Let's admit it's a mixture of low relative damage (which tank mitigation as well as invulnerabilities can negate) coupled with high tank sustainability.

Removing the increased damage from tanks is going to make far fewer people want to play them, as we saw the last time it happened. Limiting their self-healing, especially if this is done alongside the re-lowering of their damage, will likewise drive a not insignificant number of people away from the role. How does the game benefit from a tank needing twice as long to kill something as a DPS or getting murdered by some inconsequential mobs because they for some reason lack sustain, really? I've been a tank since ARR, and I definitely don't want to go back to the way it was then -- or, for that matter, to have my damage knocked back down to post-nerf levels..

None of that has anything to do with tank damage. This is NOT about nerfing tank damage.

Balance within roles is the first place we look to for job diversity, but when balance between roles fails, the whole game starts getting a bit wonky. We haven't yet hit any huge threshold or point of no return but we are certainly leaning that way, which is why we have both the reason and ability to do anything about it.

Every role needs to have some weakness that the other roles can augment. Tanks right now don't.