So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Kaurhz]

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and the people that can handle it will only learn to do such the more they're exposed to such an environment. No amount of simulation or dummy training will adequately prepare a player for that, barring the simply fact they will potentially have the fundamentals of their class ironed out, but they still once again need to juggle both and they will only do so by being exposed to such an environment. I suppose the simple fact this isn't an entirely natural process though just goes to show some of the inherent flaws in the more casual content.

It is wrong to assume people are exclusively malicious in their feedback or criticisms, equally so it is both wrong and disingenuous to assume that nobody is exercising their 'freedom of speech' to plain and simply put harass other players. - In case it isn't made abundantly clear a player not performing of a certain benchmark does not warrant harassment.

Yes all players are equal and as such both their performance and input should be objectively examined not just tossed away. It is objectively conceited to throw away the opinions or input of others because they don't meet your arbitrary standard.

Any feedback or criticism or input should be objectively examined, and questioned, not just thrown away because "lul grey parse kill". Is feedback from a potentially subpar player going to be questionable, sure? But is it immediately invalid? Nope. Because the issue at hand isn't as simple as black and white.

No it is vain to discard that opinion exclusively on that basis. As by your own admission for a first time clear this can be for a myriad of reasons but for repeats it's less permissable, hence why I said the sole metric indicative of skill or ability should not be on the basis of a singular clear.

No it is entirely down to delivery. If your sole criticism is "You suck, stay out of savage" - Then that is more on the side of harassment than it is on the "I just gave you some good constructive criticism.". There's about as many people in this community that are overly abrasive in their 'criticisms' as to what there are players disinclined to learn and improve.

My only issue with this take is that it's coming from a design that it's kind of implying that DPS contribution is much less important than performing mechanics. You need both in order to succeed. A lot of people seem to be okay with the idea of voting to remove someone from your group because they simply aren't performing mechanics well but aren't okay with the concept of removing someone from your group because they aren't performing their job's rotation well.

No they are equally as important, but a dead body doesn't do any DPS, whereas one alive that respected the mechanics can still continue to push out DPS, and nor does a player that dies and thus potentially causes everyone else to die. I never said nor implied that it is less important, just that it is equally as important as being able pump out DPS, and just highlighting the simple fact that foregoing some DPS to ensure that you can execute mechanics is important. If a member potentially or does perform in a subpar manner then that's fine. Grandstanding aside it's an objectively good solution to a potential problem. They can improve from thereon.

[Packetdancer]

However, getting greys doesn't mean you are bad forever, it just means you need a lot of improvement, so everyone should be given the grace and respect to improve, but in the same token, the grey player needs to understand that they don't have any credentials to back up their opinions, and will be treated as such.

When I decided to start trying current endgame content, I was... not good at it. Sure, I was a perfectly competent healer in casual content, but when I say I was "not good" at high-end endgame content I mean "even when I didn't eat floor, my healing choices were at best 'unoptimized' and at worst 'panicked and haphazard'." And in terms of DPS parses? Single-digit gray.

Which was, to put it mildly, kinda depressing.

But the thing was, I took those terrible parses as a measure that I needed to improve. And I figured out more of what I was doing wrong, and corrected that, and got to double-digit grey. Then green! Then blue! Sometimes purple!

And sure, DPS parses aren't a wholly objective measure of skill; they don't take into account differences between party performance as a whole, nor ilevel differences across the community between different parses, nor various factors in terms of avoidable party damage that can affect healer DPS parses.

But I could see my raw numbers aside from the parse rank -- "this is how much damage you did", "this is how much healing you did, and how much of it was needless overheal", "this is how many times you ate floor" -- and see that they were not-great, work on figuring out how I could improve, and see a new set of numbers be better. That made my progress actually concrete to me, something I could see from week to week. As much as it stung to see those terrible numbers at the beginning, I chose to approach it as "okay, this just means I have a lot of ground for improvement". And being able to see that improvement -- even as much of a margin of error and variance as parses have -- was definitely rewarding.

I mean, I am definitely not a super-elite raider or anything; I have defined myself before in many a thread on raiding as being "more an asset than a liability". But I am worlds better than I was in those early runs when I didn't have a clue what the heck I was doing, and I'd say that's because I took those terrible parses to heart not as "well, apparently I suck at this game entirely" but more as "okay, I am clearly not grasping some of the intricacies here and can obviously do better" and started working on figuring out how.

So for all that I remain absolutely convinced that introducing an official parser in-game would be taken by a non-zero number of jerks as implicit permission from the devs for their whole 'being jerks' thing, I also am firmly convinced that some sort of tool along those lines can be invaluable for improvement.

[Michieltjuhh]

Look, I know you said...

Oh and before someone gleefully comes out with the "Do u even raid bro" - I'm just going to counter that beforehand by saying irrelevant when many of these mentalities permeate into the more casual content, in addition to the simple fact that many of these mentalities are not just exclusive to FFXIV but apply to practically any multiplayer game. So don't bother coming with that.

... but then in your next post you go ahead and say this...

No they are equally as important, but a dead body doesn't do any DPS, whereas one alive that respected the mechanics can still continue to push out DPS, and nor does a player that dies and thus potentially causes everyone else to die. I never said nor implied that it is less important, just that it is equally as important as being able pump out DPS, and just highlighting the simple fact that foregoing some DPS to ensure that you can execute mechanics is important. If a member potentially or does perform in a subpar manner then that's fine. Grandstanding aside it's an objectively good solution to a potential problem. They can improve from thereon.

... which kind of counters the statement that it is 'irrelevant' because you don't seem to understand that the point he was trying to make is that in early Savage clears, just doing mechanics doesn't suffice, and consistently losing uptime because you're struggling to combine it with doing mechanics correctly will not lead you to a kill until you outgear it or until months later with Echo. It isn't a situation of player A is dying to mechanics while doing good DPS and player B is doing mechanics but bad DPS. It's a situation where player A is doing good dps and doing mechanics while player B is doing mechanics but bad DPS OR player B is dying to mechanics while doing good DPS, leading into a wipe all the same. Both can and NEED to improve, so neither is wanted in a so-called 'clear' party. While it's easy to call out the DPS that's dying, it's not easy or even possible to call out the one doing too low DPS, because damage meters are taboo.

[Euphares]

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Most of what you said is true, but a given. I only offered my examples because these are things that are not as obvious from what I've seen. We know players harass others based on parses, this is a given considering the devs hush-hush stance, but what most people fail to consider is that it doesn't matter what criticism is offered, it will be rejected simply because it is criticism. This is not an unpopular opinion by any means, and this is why this thread pops up constantly. People, including myself do not like this mindset. So thoughts are shared.


The problem with your line of thinking is that: Just because something deserves to be considered does not mean it deserves to be accepted nor does it mean it deserves to have the same or similar weight to other, more accredited opinions.


People are considering the grey player's parse, and thereby discarding it because said player's credentials (in this case, their parse) influences them in a way that makes them more inclined to disagree. There is nothing wrong with this, and it happens all the time, parsing or not. I am not saying you are claiming this, but trying to vilify what is a very normal, logical train of thought is very wrong in my opinion.


I did not admit anything contradictory, saying that it is understandable that someone gets a grey while progging/playing safe simply means that grey-players are not all bad/negligent players by default and that it means they don't automatically deserve to be disrespected/antagonized. However, grey-players do forfeit having their opinions being treated with the same credence that players with appropriate parses have. Both statements can be true and are true in my opinion.


The statement "a dead dps does no DPS" is one that is horribly misused tbh, the original meaning behind the statement is to discourage a greedy/selfish playstyle is not appropriate for prog and leads to wipes more than clears. It does not mean the opposite isn't true as well, players who only tunnel mechanics and don't put any effort to be optimal in their rotations are equally as detrimental to their groups.


As I've said earlier, players should do both and be expected to do both. That is why it is hard content.

[Kaurhz]

Look, I know you said...



... but then in your next post you go ahead and say this...



... which kind of counters the statement that it is 'irrelevant' because you don't seem to understand that the point he was trying to make is that in early Savage clears, just doing mechanics doesn't suffice, and consistently losing uptime because you're struggling to combine it with doing mechanics correctly will not lead you to a kill until you outgear it or until months later with Echo. It isn't a situation of player A is dying to mechanics while doing good DPS and player B is doing mechanics but bad DPS. It's a situation where player A is doing good dps and doing mechanics while player B is doing mechanics but bad DPS OR player B is dying to mechanics while doing good DPS, leading into a wipe all the same. Both can and NEED to improve, so neither is wanted in a so-called 'clear' party. While it's easy to call out the DPS that's dying, it's not easy or even possible to call out the one doing too low DPS, because damage meters are taboo.

I'm not sure how you managed to arrive to this but I'll bite. I never said that exclusively performing mechanics isn't the only sufficient method but just suggested that potentially sacrificing or foregoing some DPS to ensure players can successfully do the mechanic, be it to see the next mechanics in the encounter or to potentially clear then it's a perfectly logical course to take provided it falls within the constraints of meeting the DPS check. Apparently this wasn't clear enough, and I was addressing it in the particular case of the player in question, that it's a perfectly logical conclusion to arrive at provided they're able to clear the fight doing so. I'm fully aware earlier in progression where people don't have the luxury of gear benefits that situations will be less accommodating for this luxury. But once again, I was addressing it for this particular player and in the general sense...

What is it with this community and jumping from one hyperbole to another in an attempt to try and counter argue. People are evidently already clearing these fights with several people in any given group being grey parsing

[Michieltjuhh]

I'm not sure how you managed to arrive to this but I'll bite. I never said that exclusively performing mechanics isn't the only sufficient method but just suggested that potentially sacrificing or foregoing some DPS to ensure players can successfully do the mechanic, be it to see the next mechanics in the encounter or to potentially clear then it's a perfectly logical course to take provided it falls within the constraints of meeting the DPS check. Apparently this wasn't clear enough, and I was addressing it in the particular case of the player in question, that it's a perfectly logical conclusion to arrive at provided they're able to clear the fight doing so. I'm fully aware earlier in progression where people don't have the luxury of gear benefits that situations will be less accommodating for this luxury. But once again, I was addressing it for this particular player and in the general sense...

That's fair enough, but then I'm unsure what you're trying to argue against. All he said is that people are fine if players who mess up mechanics get kicked, yet not when players who do bad DPS get kicked.

What is it with this community and jumping from one hyperbole to another in an attempt to try and counter argue. People are objectively already clearing these fights with several people in any given group being grey parsing

For what it's worth, if only 10 people clear the raid, someone's going to end up parsing grey, even if they're only 1% apart. This is of course not the case, but you'd be surprised at how many people (especially tanks and healers, DPS are usually the ones that die more) are performing so subpar at dealing damage that they'd set the new low many times over. And yet those people are joining PF groups for content they're woefully incapable of clearing at this stage unless hard carried, just because they're (somewhat) capable of dealing with the mechanics.

[IdowhatIwant]

Based on the complaints being made in here I feel like we are playing different games. That or I just don't care what people have to say to me.

I'm not sure how you managed to arrive to this but I'll bite. I never said that exclusively performing mechanics isn't the only sufficient method but just suggested that potentially sacrificing or foregoing some DPS to ensure players can successfully do the mechanic, be it to see the next mechanics in the encounter or to potentially clear then it's a perfectly logical course to take provided it falls within the constraints of meeting the DPS check.

Also mechanics give damage downs, so not doing the mechanic is probably more of a dps loss than a dropped gcd to do the mechanic.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Based on the complaints being made in here I feel like we are playing different games. That or I just don't care what people have to say to me.

I stopped caring all together. And to be fair I'll admit this topic in of itself makes me salty and I have been jumping to conclusions and barking at people over some valid points on the importance to improve dps. So yes both sides made some good points but the bottom line is, official parsing is never going to happen. Yoshi-P and the devs already made their stand on it and no amount of crying is going to deter them to implement meters in the game. I want to improve as much as the next person, thats why there are numerous rotation guides online for many people whom want to self improve their game and thats honestly been enough after all these years this game has been running without official addon support.

[Kaurhz]

That's fair enough, but then I'm unsure what you're trying to argue against. All he said is that people are fine if players who mess up mechanics get kicked, yet not when players who do bad DPS get kicked.


For what it's worth, if only 10 people clear the raid, someone's going to end up parsing grey, even if they're only 1% apart. This is of course not the case, but you'd be surprised at how many people (especially tanks and healers, DPS are usually the ones that die more) are performing so subpar at dealing damage that they'd set the new low many times over. And yet those people are joining PF groups for content they're woefully incapable of clearing at this stage unless hard carried, just because they're (somewhat) capable of dealing with the mechanics.

I'm arguing on the simple fact their input was being dismissed by another player in the group that was by their 'admission' slow to grasping mechanics or being consistent with them. Arguably in this case both of the players are just a different side of the same coin, so I don't think anyone is in the position to pull the credential card.

For what it's worth, if you have admitted that this isn't the case then pointing it out hypothetically in the first place is a little counterproductive when every given class already has beyond 20,000 logs on it. That's just basic statistics where a small sample size will have a significant impact on the meaning and result of the information.

I don't dispute that either. But in the same vein and as I have said to another player that is not a grounds for harassing or throwing around slurs at another player. If you think they won't be able to contribute meaningfully long-term, or even short-term and after providing suggestions then you simply remove them from the group and move on. If you want to gate keep your party accordingly that is your prerogative as the party or static lead. But again, in the case of this particular example with the Miqo'te it pretty much highlights perfectly well why suggestions on parsing in-game is always met with backlash, because some people just don't have the noblest of intentions with parsing. Do I think parsing has significant benefit for practically every player in the game? Of course. Do I expect that players will use this information responsibly and respectfully? Nah not a chance. I find a certain amount of irony with people that just want to give advice and constructive criticism, yet seemingly roll over into a ball in fear of being banned as a result of doing so.

[Michieltjuhh]

I'm arguing on the simple fact their input was being dismissed by another player in the group that was by their 'admission' slow to grasping mechanics or being consistent with them. Arguably in this case both of the players are just a different side of the same coin, so I don't think anyone is in the position to pull the credential card.

I don't think anyone was claiming that the stance the static took was fair, and at best very hypocritical. That didn't mean that what they said was inherently incorrect.

For what it's worth, if you have admitted that this isn't the case then pointing it out hypothetically in the first place is a little counterproductive when every given class already has beyond 20,000 logs on it. That's just basic statistics where a small sample size will have a significant impact on the meaning and result of the information.

I just meant that parsing grey doesn't necessarily mean bad. Right now, it generally already does, like I mentioned with these PF abusers trying to set new lows. Though on the last fight grey still means relatively adequate, so long as it's in the upper 20s.

I don't dispute that either. But in the same vein and as I have said to another player that is not a grounds for harassing or throwing around slurs at another player. If you think they won't be able to contribute meaningfully long-term, or even short-term and after providing suggestions then you simply remove them from the group and move on. If you want to gate keep your party accordingly that is your prerogative as the party or static lead. But again, in the case of this particular example with the Miqo'te it pretty much highlights perfectly well why suggestions on parsing in-game is always met with backlash, because some people just don't have the noblest of intentions with parsing. Do I think parsing has significant benefit for practically every player in the game? Of course. Do I expect that players will use this information responsibly and respectfully? Nah not a chance. I find a certain amount of irony with people that just want to give advice and constructive criticism, yet seemingly roll over into a ball in fear of being banned as a result of doing so.

Someone else (who, ironically, parsed 100% on that selfsame fight) pointed out that the stance of the static was, in a vacuum, correct, since that person did get 'carried' to a kill due to a too weak personal performance, that wouldn't at all suffice for the last fight(s) since the carry potential of others is lower. If your parses are progressively worse per boss, it means that your DPS is consistently low (the amount of lower DPS parses gradually decrease as higher DPS is required), meaning that for the final fight(s), this same DPS that was pulled off on all the previous bosses is going to be inadequate. This time, it was constructive criticism and by someone with the credentials to give it.

This was then dismissed as "bullshit" and "elitist gatekeeping" by the Miqo'te. Criticism taken well, right there. Which leads to the problem people have: others don't want criticism. They want to get carried and they want you to like doing it.