So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Also I like to point out the entire reason for this thread is for the belief that everyone should be required to parse. Is it fair to push that to other strangers whom only care about having fun doing content without worrying about doing perfect runs? These tools already exist anyway isnt that enough?

The game wasnt made for it to be competitive. You can clear harder content as long as you learn the fights and know how to play your class. DPS checks are as just a mechanic requiring everybody to clear it with reasonable leeway. If you want to be childish and start pushing the blame on others for raid wipes rather than be mature about it then thats your own issue.

[Michieltjuhh]

What I dont like is pushing it as a requirement tool to gatekeep players from doing end game content.

Then maybe it's time they stopped making fights that are made to gatekeep these players in the first place? DPS checks aren't made by the player.

Also I like to point out the entire reason for this thread is for the belief that everyone should be required to parse. Is it fair to push that to other strangers whom only care about having fun doing content without worrying about doing perfect runs? These tools already exist anyway isnt that enough?

The game wasnt made for it to be competitive. You can clear harder content as long as you learn the fights and know how to play your class. DPS checks are as just a mechanic requiring everybody to clear it with reasonable leeway. If you want to be childish and start pushing the blame on others for raid wipes rather than be mature about it then thats your own issue.

Clearing is just fine, groups that want perfect already call themselves 'parse runs' and already apply all these standards (thank god that they do this even if it's at the risk of getting banned due to SE's horrible stance on this). But guess what, those fights have DPS checks, and while they do indeed offer leeway, a lot of players aren't capable of playing their class to the required level to meet those. Yet they think they can, and you're not allowed to refute that, because talking about it is taboo.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

The game wasnt made for it to be competitive. You can clear harder content as long as you learn the fights and know how to play your class.

There's a difference between knowing how to play your class and assuming you know how to play your class. I've seen 0 parsing - and I mean the absolute bottom of the barrel DPS - openly boast they're the best damage dealer on the team. When I started playing MNK last tier - I thought I knew what I was doing. Low and behold I was parsing between 12 and 20 on my respective logs. I only fixed it after my static kept posting logs. Otherwise I'd have remained utterly ignorant of the fact that I actually had no idea what I was doing. Me possessing that valuable knowledge caused me to go from gray to purple in a single tier.

[Packetdancer]

Also I like to point out the entire reason for this thread is for the belief that everyone should be required to parse.

I'd actually disagree with that read of things; I think a lot of the argument in this thread has been for some sort of parsing tool in-game not because people should be required to parse, but because people who aren't playing on PC deserve access to similar tools to measure their performance, to figure out how they can improve it -- and to chart that improvement as they work on it, which sure helps for staying motivated. (Or at least, it did for me.)

I know that's the position that I'm arguing from, anyway.

Though with the caveat that I think an ACT-type parser is probably not the correct path for an in-game tool, because a) assigning a numerical 'worth' to a player is not a path that leads to less toxicity and confrontation, and b) an ACT-style live-logging DPS meter is not an objective measurement regardless, since the real-time damage is going to be highly dependent on the rest of the party. Did the AST actually pop Divination and distribute cards, were the melee buffed by the RDM actually using Embolden, etc.

(Witness my hypothetical dream design, that's more like a built-in XIVanalysis type tool than a purely numeric parser.)

But even insofar as DPS meters go, I don't think it's toxic to look at the DPS being generated after several pulls, go "Okay, we just mathematically do not have the damage to clear this fight with this party" and go your separate ways. As opposed to beating your head against a brick wall for two hours in the futile hope that more DPS magically appears, until you're frustrated and snappish at each other.

[HappyHubris]

And I can counter argue that it isnt fair for people whom want to raid harder content for the sake of doing so but do to official parsing theyll get barred or bullied off a group due to toxic players using it to excuse that behavior. The minute that tool gets officially introduced I guarantee you that itll cause more problems than good. Weve seen this happen time and time again in other MMOs where the raiding scene just wanes due to toxicity. Already this entire thread is causing toxic barking from all of us. Im no saint either.

This argument works for you because you classify specific behavior as toxic. I see showing up for a raid without bothering to try and learn to play your class reasonably well as "toxic:" you're causing a group numerous enrage wipes and wasting their time. If you're someone that only has a bit of time to try to raid each week, waiting for a party finder group to assemble, getting in to the boss, and then hitting your head against the enrage over and over because DPS #4 is really underperforming is toxic to your enjoyment of the game.

Let me ask a question: if someone lies to a group about watching a video on the strat and wipes them over and over and over due to not knowing a fight they said they did, is that detrimental to the game or the raid scene? How is that different than pretending you can play your class at a raid level and then causing wipes?

[Atelier-Bagur]

There's a difference between knowing how to play your class and assuming you know how to play your class. I've seen 0 parsing - and I mean the absolute bottom of the barrel DPS - openly boast they're the best damage dealer on the team. When I started playing MNK last tier - I thought I knew what I was doing. Low and behold I was parsing between 12 and 20 on my respective logs. I only fixed it after my static kept posting logs. Otherwise I'd have remained utterly ignorant of the fact that I actually had no idea what I was doing. Me possessing that valuable knowledge caused me to go from gray to purple in a single tier.

Thats good for you, Im not doubting this improved your game and you have more fun. But if you start to push that on others to use it, blame them for not performing optimally, push it on people and potentially harass them for not doing max deeps then we have a problem. This is what I dont like "oh wow im playing super optimally, everyone should do the same."

Ive researched my classes, I know what the optimal rotations are. Guess what half of the time I dont bother keeping track, as long as I perform well and do boss mechanics thats good enough and this is how FFXIV is designed, its designed for the casual players to have fun without worrying about being super hardcore. When I did Shb savage trials back when they were relevant, I didnt expect the group to do max damage, I expected them to mostly know the fight, allowing human error and guess what it was a positive environment. Is it the most efficient? No, but Im also not going to push every player in this game to adhere to my rules. Just like you shouldnt push others to parse just because you find it good for you.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

Thats good for you, Im not doubting this improved your game and you have more fun. But if you start to push that on others to use it, blame them for not performing optimally, push it on people and potentially harass them for not doing max deeps then we have a problem. This is what I dont like "oh wow im playing super optimally, everyone should do the same."

Ive researched my classes, I know what the optimal rotations are. Guess what half of the time I dont bother keeping track, as long as I perform well and do boss mechanics thats good enough and this is how FFXIV is designed, its designed for the casual players to have fun without worrying about being super hardcore. When I did Shb savage trials back when they were relevant, I didnt expect the group to do max damage, I expected them to mostly know the fight, allowing human error and guess what it was a positive environment. Is it the most efficient? No, but Im also not going to push every player in this game to adhere to my rules. Just like you shouldnt push others to parse just because you find it good for you.

I'll only push others to fix their dps if dps is the core issue. Mechanically they can be just fine. But if we're in a pre-made or even a static - yes, I'm going to have an issue with people sandbagging runs.

Personally I don't care about DF. But I do care in a pre-arranged environment where decent dps allows for clears. The minimal expectation in raiding is competence. Both mechanically and dps-wise.

I won't harass people who don't do either. I'll just kick them. Or request my static lead to either talk to them or remove them from our 8 man if they're not willing to improve.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I'll only push others to fix their dps if dps is the core issue. Mechanically they can be just fine. But if we're in a pre-made or even a static - yes, I'm going to have an issue with people sandbagging runs.

Personally I don't care about DF. But I do care in a pre-arranged environment where decent dps allows for clears. The minimal expectation in raiding is competence. Both mechanically and dps-wise.

I won't harass people who don't do either. I'll just kick them. Or request my static lead to either talk to them or remove them from our 8 man if they're not willing to improve.

And you wanna know something? Im totally fine with that. Ive been constantly saying that I'm fine and accept that this is a thing. Do I like it? Not really, I still think its kinda toxic despite the good intentions, but its something that happens with a portion of the raiding community and what people do within their own statics isnt ultimately my problem.

I just dont want to see parsing as an <ahem> "official" full on requirement for raiding. Its not completely necessary, it creates more harm than good for to the community but I'm not gonna stop you if you want to form hardcore groups that use them for content.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

And you wanna know something? Im totally fine with that. Ive been constantly saying that I'm fine and accept that this is a thing. Do I like it? Not really, I still think its kinda toxic despite the good intentions, but its something that happens with a portion of the raiding community and what people do within their own statics isnt ultimately my problem.

I just dont want to see parsing as an <ahem> "official" full on requirement for raiding. Its not completely necessary, it creates more harm than good for to the community but I'm not gonna stop you if you want to form hardcore groups that use them for content.

Raiding is a team effort. You're expected to pull your weight. I personally view the unwillingness to do your job as comparatively more toxic. It's akin to a healer who fails to make the heal check - or a tank who doesn't properly mitigate during an oncoming tank buster - and so on and so forth.

Parsing only helps accurately identify the exact problem if the dps check is consistently failed and clearly defines where the party can improve. I don't understand how factual information can be viewed as 'toxic'. But - thankfully - a vast majority of the people who I raid with don't have that bemusing mindset.

I suppose it treads into 'the truth kinda sucks' territory at that point.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Raiding is a team effort. You're expected to pull your weight. I personally view the unwillingness to do your job as comparatively more toxic. It's akin to a healer who fails to make the heal check - or a tank who doesn't properly mitigate during an oncoming tank buster - and so on and so forth.

Parsing only helps accurately identify the exact problem if the dps check is consistently failed and clearly defines where the party can improve. I don't understand how factual information can be viewed as 'toxic'. But - thankfully - a vast majority of the people who I raid with don't have that bemusing mindset.

I suppose it treads into 'the truth kinda sucks' territory at that point.

Buddy, me not doing the best of damage rotations isnt the issue here. But what youre implying is that this game's "dps check wipes" occur because everyone wasnt performing super optimally. "Oh I know I've been putting out the best damage, that must mean its everybody else's fault and I therefore have to blame them for the wipe". This is a straight up childish excuse with dps checks, theres tons of factors on why wipes could happen during them; too many people dead during the phase, nobody did an LB3, almost everyone in the group have the rez debuff etc. The fights allow margin of error but what you're telling me (and pretty much what I'm hearing from most people whom are for parsing) is that everybody and I mean EVERYBODY was just completely brain dead and didnt press their damage buttons!?

The entire party isnt required for ever single schmuck in the group to output maximum damage to clear a dps check phase. You dont wipe because Bimmy and Jimmy alone didnt do optimal numbers. The game gives you enough leeway to clear them as long as everyone contributes to just dealing damage. So yes you are expected to pull your own weight. You're just not expected to also run a marathon while you're at it.