So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[LittleImp]

When i said i cleared p3S it all started going very wrong with them, they begun to be very salty and agressive on the discord , then look into "details" and my gear, kind of mocking the fact i wasn't pentameld, that i did around a 9 to 10% of overall war ranking damage that cleared this P3S fight previously, so not only they used parses / logs to criticize but they also told me that it didn't mean anythingbecause i wasn't logged higher, while they themselves take AGES to learn a fight and it's patterns, positions and all that, while i would stay silent on these issues and keep coming in the static and try to help with some advices on the fight.

They were probably salty because you got carried through the fight by simply happening to join the right party at the right time. Your low damage and mechanical consistency is very likely a result of sacrificing your rotation/uptime to focus on mechanics, and if everyone in the party played like you, a clear would likely not be mathematically possible. If you haven't optimized a fight to a degree where you're actually pushing your fair share of damage, you haven't really "learned" the fight imo.

For reference, if you're doing 10% tank damage in P3S, you're something like 600+ dps off of what is widely considered to be the minimum expectation for a Tank in p4s. That's a HUGE gap, and unfairly offloads a lot of strain onto other players to make up the difference.

[Atelier-Bagur]

They were probably salty because you got carried through the fight by simply happening to join the right party at the right time. Your low damage and mechanical consistency is very likely a result of sacrificing your rotation/uptime to focus on mechanics, and if everyone in the party played like you, a clear would likely not be mathematically possible. If you haven't optimized a fight to a degree where you're actually pushing your fair share of damage, you haven't really "learned" the fight imo.

For reference, if you're doing 10% tank damage in P3S, you're something like 600+ dps off of what is widely considered to be the minimum expectation for a Tank in p4s. That's a HUGE gap, and unfairly offloads a lot of strain onto other players to make up the difference.

Oh boy here we go...

[Katt_Felista]

I'm sorry, it must suck to be rejected when looking for a static to do content in, but nothing that you posted is discrimination. You didn't perform to their standards and they are allowed to pick who is in their static. Least of all when it seems like you were a trial member.

I'm sorry, there shouldn't be to "perform to their standards" and i'll explain why they don't have "standards" (or they made them up the instant i cleared p3s without them after the third day of training in static, they allow you to go yourself clear then after these 3 days ) when they never actually stated they would be that kind of "elitist" and use parses nor fflogs to have a peenls contest with everyone else in the game and feel like they are in some sort of race for something when, i can bring some criticism too, you know, they can't even go past adds on p3S afer week 3, that is something i never said to them, but if i had to do the reverse critique, they were pretty slow at learning P2S mechanics and even slower to learn anything on p3S while i was already going to enrages on the beginning of week 2. I didn't evoke any of this in the party because it's stupid / negative and it doesn't help progress.

And yes, the moment i cleared it they just showed their true face, they just weren't the nice and welcoming persons they were anymore when we were running P1S and P2S. I can understand they had frustrations with P3S for how the static was performing, but it felt like a "release the pressure on someone" moment with all the arsenal and data mining possible just to shit on the fact i cleared it on the "free time" the static allows you to clear it.

[AmiableApkallu]

Clearly people parse in FFXIV but as a business standpoint it would be detrimental to the game if they officially introduce tools like that into it, no longer FFXIV would be heralded as the "casual" friendly MMO when more people start abusing parsing and pushing it into other players.

Abuse isn't the only thing to consider.

For high-end raiding, as long as the players have the data, I'd bet that they'd be better at designing and implementing the tools they need to perform "optimally," and that they'd be more responsive to revelations and changes in what "optimal" is. There is no reason for SE to compete in that space; they would just get flack for being too slow, not understanding their own game, etc. (If only console players had the data…)

For more casual players (where I'd put myself), an in-game tool to nudge them towards better play would be dandy — certainly no worse than quests that are essentially tutorials for job mechanics. But I can't imagine such a tool also being useful for Savage+ without making those casual players feel bad for not executing rotations perfectly and whatnot, especially when that level of play isn't necessary for the content that they're actually doing. (At the casual level, the answer seems to always be "do better at boss mechanics" or "equip level-appropriate gear", not "fix your DPS rotation.")

[Michieltjuhh]

You're seriously being over dramatic, not every single duty you queue up in DF is a total slogfest. The majority of this community is not in a situation where there's a clear divide between the casual and the hardcore like WoW. The situation that you're thinking is so minor in the grand scheme of things that its not even worth the potential toxicity parsing would bring into the game. It's like trying to fix a papercut with an atom bomb.

Actually, majority of dungeons I do (and I do most as healer), I end up doing significantly more DPS than the actual DPS players while having to pull for the tank since most of them don't know how to walk nor press their 2-button AoE 'rotation'. The runs I do in DF are on average at least 50% slower than the ones I do with my friends. Yet if I queue as DPS I end up doing the vast majority of the carrying, and as tank I'm still topping DPS by a fair margin.

Meanwhile, they probably don't even know they're doing as bad as they are, because the game literally gives 0 feedback regarding your performance.

There's nothing wrong to help others on how to play better, but bringing in numbers is just gonna drive away a lot of people from having fun only for the sake of the few who cares about max deeps.

How exactly were you planning on telling someone to improve without the risk of getting banned for knowing that they were doing rubbish in the first place? Sure, dying is a clear tell, but most people don't press buttons 50% of the time as I mentioned above. You don't have to fail mechanics to fail at your job.

Again, you have solutions already available if you want to be hardcore. Nothing is stopping you on building a premade or better yet just teaching your friends on how to maximize your precious dps, all you have to do is not be a complete dilbert about it and it'll be fine. Get over yourself.

Ah yes, some kids are pissing in the pool, but you're not allowed to be annoyed with that so lets just leave if you don't like it! Got any other bright statements?

[KageTokage]

Honestly, I ended up swearing off of statics for savage after having way too many bad experiences with them whether it be poor attendance, uneven standards where people outside of the pre-established circle of friends are judged more harshly, or them simply just not learning quickly enough.

The most I'll do nowdays is form a pseudo static for a final fight if I run into a PF group that I know has the potential to clear the fight and arrange for them to get back together again another day.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Abuse isn't the only thing to consider.

For high-end raiding, as long as the players have the data, I'd bet that they'd be better at designing and implementing the tools they need to perform "optimally," and that they'd be more responsive to revelations and changes in what "optimal" is. There is no reason for SE to compete in that space; they would just get flack for being too slow, not understanding their own game, etc. (If only console players had the data…)

For more casual players (where I'd put myself), an in-game tool to nudge them towards better play would be dandy — certainly no worse than quests that are essentially tutorials for job mechanics. But I can't imagine such a tool also being useful for Savage+ without making those casual players feel bad for not executing rotations perfectly and whatnot, especially when that level of play isn't necessary for the content that they're actually doing. (At the casual level, the answer seems to always be "do better at boss mechanics" or "equip level-appropriate gear", not "fix your DPS rotation.")

Bingo, there's no point for SE to officially input dps meters when we have an external community that does that job nicely (from what Im hearing). To me people whom are complaining about wanting it to be part of the game officially is that they just dont want to get in trouble for talking about it publicly, which I say thats your fault and personal risk. Use discord if you want to talk about it. Ive cleared some of PS with my static and we were able to do them just fine by coming prepared knowing mechanics and just doing our rotations simply, not because we were all worried about max deeps.

[LittleImp]

Oh boy here we go...

Do hard numeric requirements on a video game terrify you that much?

They exist. You have to meet them. It's a team game, and it's disrespectful to other people (especially strangers) if you enter a space where you are knowingly unable to contribute to meeting that hard-coded, minimum requirement. I'm just speaking frankly from a place of experience, and trying to explain why those people may have felt the way they did about the situation. But hey, this is a thread full of weirdly abrasive "casual" players making ignorant statements about a community formed around content they've barely if ever participated in. I think my favorite has been the extremely laughable "Addons killed WoW" historical revisionism.

P4S phase 1 has one of the tightest DPS checks this game has seen in recent years. Recruiting someone to your static that you know is unable to contribute to that check is just asking for more drama later.

[Amon-ster]

I don't really see how DPS meters would make the community more "toxic" as people say.
Most people use their experience of other MMO communities as a reference point but I think that's flawed, since most of us can agree that XIV isn't like the other game communities, and I'd argue that the lack of DPS meters isn't the only thing keeping XIV from spiraling into WoW.

Instead we can use other cases of performance metrics. In XIV it's VERY obvious when a tank or a healer is underperforming. It becomes more difficult for the co-healer to heal if the other healer is lacking, the tank takes way more damage when they aren't mitigating properly and you can feel that difference as both a healer and a co-tank. HPS is something we don't need a parser to tell -- we can just see and feel the effects of poor HPS. And yet we don't attack tanks or healers for not performing well (at least, not in general). We either carry them through and complain about it in TalesFromDF or something, or we just grin and bear it because the ToS scares us into not saying anything (or maybe we just don't WANT to say anything). I'm not sure why the community would go from passive aggressive at worst, grin and bear it at best to rampaging elitists the moment DPS can actually be tracked. We don't hold bad tanks and bad healers accountable, so why would we suddenly hold bad DPS accountable?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Do hard numeric requirements on a video game terrify you that much?

They exist. You have to meet them. It's a team game, and it's disrespectful to other people (especially strangers) if you enter a space where you are knowingly unable to contribute to meeting that hard-coded, minimum requirement. I'm just speaking frankly from a place of experience, and trying to explain why those people may have felt the way they did about the situation. But hey, this is a thread full of weirdly abrasive "casual" players making ignorant statements about a community formed around content they've barely if ever participated in. I think my favorite has been the extremely laughable "Addons killed WoW" historical revisionism.

P4S phase 1 has one of the tightest DPS checks this game has seen in recent years. Recruiting someone to your static that you know is unable to contribute to that check is just asking for more drama later.

I cant say anything about P4S since I havent done it, but it just feels silly and childish to pin all the blame on a single person when its like you said a group effort.