So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Amon-ster]

I don't really see how DPS meters would make the community more "toxic" as people say.
Most people use their experience of other MMO communities as a reference point but I think that's flawed, since most of us can agree that XIV isn't like the other game communities, and I'd argue that the lack of DPS meters isn't the only thing keeping XIV from spiraling into WoW.

Instead we can use other cases of performance metrics. In XIV it's VERY obvious when a tank or a healer is underperforming. It becomes more difficult for the co-healer to heal if the other healer is lacking, the tank takes way more damage when they aren't mitigating properly and you can feel that difference as both a healer and a co-tank. HPS is something we don't need a parser to tell -- we can just see and feel the effects of poor HPS. And yet we don't attack tanks or healers for not performing well (at least, not in general). We either carry them through and complain about it in TalesFromDF or something, or we just grin and bear it because the ToS scares us into not saying anything (or maybe we just don't WANT to say anything). I'm not sure why the community would go from passive aggressive at worst, grin and bear it at best to rampaging elitists the moment DPS can actually be tracked. We don't hold bad tanks and bad healers accountable, so why would we suddenly hold bad DPS accountable?

[Michieltjuhh]

In XIV it's VERY obvious when a tank or a healer is underperforming. It becomes more difficult for the co-healer to heal if the other healer is lacking, the tank takes way more damage when they aren't mitigating properly and you can feel that difference as both a healer and a co-tank. HPS is something we don't need a parser to tell -- we can just see and feel the effects of poor HPS. And yet we don't attack tanks or healers for not performing well (at least, not in general). We either carry them through and complain about it in TalesFromDF or something, or we just grin and bear it because the ToS scares us into not saying anything (or maybe we just don't WANT to say anything). I'm not sure why the community would go from passive aggressive at worst, grin and bear it at best to rampaging elitists the moment DPS can actually be tracked. We don't hold bad tanks and bad healers accountable, so why would we suddenly hold bad DPS accountable?

If you've ever raided Savage, you'd know that's only them failing at a tiny part of their actual job. Their actual job is also to DPS, I'm afraid to say. This game doesn't really have roles. Everyone's a DPS, while healers get an extra minigame that requires them to press healing buttons every now and then while minimizing dps loss and tanks get an extra minigame of having to press mitigation every now and then for mechanics specifically made for them.

And you can't easily find out whether or not tanks/healers are doing bad at their actual job. My first P3S clear on my alt in week 2 (after multiple 1-2% enrages week 1 due to low DPS) was with a warrior who was incredible at positioning the boss and mechanics in general. He also logged 0% on damage. We killed the boss 2 seconds before enrage, no thanks to him, even if his good positioning surely helped the melee deal a bit more.

[Amon-ster]

If you've ever raided Savage, you'd know that's only them failing at a tiny part of their actual job. Their actual job is also to DPS, I'm afraid to say. This game doesn't really have roles. Everyone's a DPS, while healers get an extra minigame that requires them to press healing buttons every now and then while minimizing dps loss and tanks get an extra minigame of having to press mitigation every now and then for mechanics specifically made for them.

And you can't easily find out whether or not tanks/healers are doing bad at their actual job. My first P3S clear on my alt in week 2 (after multiple 1-2% enrages week 1 due to low DPS) was with a warrior who was incredible at positioning the boss and mechanics in general. He also logged 0% on damage. We killed the boss 2 seconds before enrage, no thanks to him, even if his good positioning surely helped the melee deal a bit more.

Yeah I know that everyone turns into a DPS at the end of the day, especially in Savage, but things like positioning and healing output and whatnot are STILL failure metrics that we can see and measure without the need of external tools. In WoW, if the tank positions poorly they'd get flamed. In XIV, they don't. If someone says anything, it's usually just a "Hey man, can you do X this run? I'd appreciate it." I think the ToS and general vibe of the community are sufficient enough to ensure that we don't see "toxic" behavior at large.

[Michieltjuhh]

Yeah I know that everyone turns into a DPS at the end of the day, especially in Savage, but things like positioning and healing output and whatnot are STILL failure metrics that we can see and measure without the need of external tools. In WoW, if the tank positions poorly they'd get flamed. In XIV, they don't. If someone says anything, it's usually just a "Hey man, can you do X this run? I'd appreciate it." I think the ToS and general vibe of the community are sufficient enough to ensure that we don't see "toxic" behavior at large.

Sure, but in WoW the regulation is literally nonexistent. What's stopping FF14 from having a damage meter implemented in the game so people actually KNOW they're not playing well, while still regulating it, albeit to a less extreme but still very reasonable extent? After all, ACT isn't what shows you the tank is positioning the boss wrong, the game itself does that, and yet people aren't using this information to be toxic either.

[Amon-ster]

Sure, but in WoW the regulation is literally nonexistent. What's stopping FF14 from having a damage meter implemented in the game so people actually KNOW they're not playing well, while still regulating it, albeit to a less extreme but still very reasonable extent? After all, ACT isn't what shows you the tank is positioning the boss wrong, the game itself does that, and yet people aren't using this information to be toxic either.

Yeah I'm agreeing with that sentiment. If ACT became legal I don't think the game would become toxic because we already aren't toxic to each other despite the many other ways we can see when someone is causing the raid to wipe.