Openly admitting to ignoring the players

[ExcogEnjoyer]

I also would like it if AST is more regen oriented, I mean, technically it already is, just by virtue of having more regen spells than WHM, but I'd like it if they solidify that as its identity/niche, just to separate both jobs further.

Square won't do this on the virtue of being horrified at the idea of a job being slightly better than another at fucking anything.

[Allegor]

Square won't do this on the virtue of being horrified at the idea of a job being slightly better than another at fucking anything.

It's not better though, just different. If anything, the actual issue would be people not understanding how healing over time works (as is already the case ...nothing like using Medica II/Helios only for the co healer to top everyone off...) and think it's weaker.

[Acece]

Square won't do this on the virtue of being horrified at the idea of a job being slightly better than another at fucking anything.

ast is already a better whm right now, I don't think they really care.

[Boizinho]

Square won't do this on the virtue of being horrified at the idea of a job being slightly better than another at fucking anything.

I dunno, in terms of healers they seem to love making one healer a strictly inferior version of another. AST is literally just "WHM+." Better GCD heals with Neutral Sect, better oGCD heals, better rDPS, better mobility. The reason to bring WHM over AST is "my friend plays a WHM and I don't want to be mean and ask them to change."

Similarly, it's extremely obvious that the way they designed Sage's kit was to take almost the entirety of Scholar's kit, copy-paste it, and then start adding things on top of that. With the launch of A Realm Reborn they had ideas for only 2 healers, and here we are 8 years later, they still only have 2 ideas for healers.

[Saefinn]

Because people aren't playing it to have a complex rotation, they're playing it because they want to heal and support their group and *gasp* don't mind having downtime to their skills.

So with that said *ahem* "Bye Felicia ♡"

Hmm, I don't like the implication here, because I know you've been around these healer forums for maybe roughly the same time as me. So you will know the biggest cause of complaint. You focus on the 'complex rotation' part, but that's only a solution to a problem. Yes, there are alternative solutions, but the making more complex DPS if anything is the most sensible one. Well, I'd say a mix of two things, making DPS more complex and making sure future encounters better utilise the healer kits.

People talk about the high downtime a lot and give huge numbers - sometimes backed with tangible data on how big that is and people often put "70%" as the average for talking points because it is a realistic number.

For those who are playing healers to heal and support (which I would argue alsoincludes many of those complaining) are they having that desire satisfied if they have a big and complex healing kit they don't get full use of because they only need use a healing skill for 30% of the time?

Let's go with how bad it is in things like dungeons, I got Anamnesis Anyder in a roulette the other day on my SAM. The healer DC'd after the first pull. We didn't get a replacement until just before the last boss. We managed the majority of the dungeon with Paladin, Samurai and Summoner. I feel like if we had maybe a Paladin, Red Mage, Samurai and Summoner set up it could have been an easy run with a higher overall DPS than a 2 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer set up. So when I see things like that I feel the role of a healer if anything is undervalued.


The alternative solution is:

Up the healing requirement. Squash that 70% down to 10 or 20%, you'll find that I'll stop complaining except maybe in solo content.

To me and I think for many others it's acceptable because hey, they get a lot more to do and have more to focus on and get to appreciate the complexity of the healing kits they've already design for us because they're thinking most about how they can use it efficiently to keep people alive. You'll still get those who'll say "it's not WoW, I liked the healing/DPS hybrid concept we had going" but ultimately the biggest complaints are resolved and the complaints from the complaining right now will be reduced.


But there are a few problems:
- Healing is now harder (which is fine for me)
- Healing is now less accessible
- People start complaining because there's healers struggling to keep up
- It'd take a monumental amount of changes for the devs, because encounters and mechanics would need to be tweaked to accommodate this. Not just future ones but existing ones.


However, if we simply make the DPS more complex (and not to DRG or SMN levels or anything ridiculous like that) then we'd find the following:
- It respects existing game design
- Historic encounters can be left alone
- It's a lot less work on the devs to implement
- Healing is just as accessible as it is now.
- Healing remains exactly as it is
- People with long downtimes get more to do.
- Most content doesn't require healer DPS, so people don't have to jump in and embrace the complexity unless they're seeking to optimise DPS.

But if we were to say, take the SCH philosophy of 2.0 for DPS, it wouldn't be a combo rotation, so no pressure to finish it when there's healing to be done, but you keep DoTs topped up and throw in various beneficial moves as and when you can, so it's not actually that complicated.

It's reasons like this that the "complex rotation" idea is pushed. It's not so much that we don't want to heal and support our group like everybody else (and in a game where rDPS is how performance is measured, DPS contribution IS supporting the group), yes, some prefer the idea of a healer/DPS hybrid and started playing this game when that was an option (like me, for example) but hey, it'd be a lot easier to concede if the downtime was a lot lower because we're still having fun.

[GrimGale]

Snip

Spot on. Thank you.

Considering the argument that healers that don\\\\'t want to engage in more complex downtime systems don\\\\'t have to, if the Healer job kits includes more DPS or active utility options, I can\\\\'t see why anybody would be against asking Devs for more buttons in that regard.

"Hey, we want a higher skill ceiling. Skill floor is perfectly high as it is."

"Hey, we want the skill ceiling as close to skill floor as possible."

It's like you' re asking people to be forced to play at your level, then you tell them to leave the role when they tell you they are getting bored.

[ty_taurus]

Spot on. Thank you.

Considering the argument that healers that don\\\\'t want to engage in more complex downtime systems don\\\\'t have to, if the Healer job kits includes more DPS or active utility options, I can\\\\'t see why anybody would be against asking Devs for more buttons in that regard.

"Hey, we want a higher skill ceiling. Skill floor is perfectly high as it is."

"Hey, we want the skill ceiling as close to skill floor as possible."

It's like you' re asking people to be forced to play at your level, then you tell them to leave the role when they tell you they are getting bored.

I've had this conversation with someone before. There are people who are content with how healing is currently, which is ultimately fine. No one is required to feel the same frustration a lot of participants on these forums do, but the majority of those players wouldn't really care if the job gained more depth, and others might not even care if it becomes more complex. They just enjoy the role regardless.

Then there are some who get mad at the idea of adding depth because suddenly it means they would have to work harder in order to stay optimized, and that to me is just selfish.

[GrimGale]

I've had this conversation with someone before. There are people who are content with how healing is currently, which is ultimately fine. No one is required to feel the same frustration a lot of participants on these forums do, but the majority of those players wouldn't really care if the job gained more depth, and others might not even care if it becomes more complex. They just enjoy the role regardless.

Then there are some who get mad at the idea of adding depth because suddenly it means they would have to work harder in order to stay optimized, and that to me is just selfish.

Yes. Althought, the way these things are argued here, I wouldn't blame the opposing side for believeing we hold them responsible for our criticisms.

I feel my side, or the side that demands more complexity often tends to both belitle and dismiss players who are happy with the current design, we come across as condescending when adressing the issues and that is ultimately hurting our side of the argument.

I, personally am fine with ease of access. I'm fine with a low skill floor. Even if I hate what it has brought.

I see it as such a wasted opportunity too. I was hoping the prunning of skills would be grounds for new developpements. A new base to build upon as the devs said back in ShB launch. Apparently that is not to be the case. I just don't want healers to become stale as they are.

[Shin96]

They ain't gonna do jackshit about it. They got their new playerbase. As long as they generate enough money to pay their bills - the trend shall continue, much to its dismay.

From a case to case analysis, this is one huge flop of a choice. Veterans and long-time fans are the bread and butter of every MMO. It's no wonder people tune in on streams by people with exceptional skill; because it's more entertaining. Nobody wants to see a person spamming 1-2, 1-2 ad nauseam, unless they're talented by keeping viewers hooked. Now translate this by multiplying this scenario a thousand times. By the time you reach the next expansion people are severely burned out.

In the same way, all of this is a spectacle. Previous systems of difficulty and role designs is what led this game to its success; what you are seeing is them piggybacking on historical content because new players don't mind having more content to distract them. As long as this facade and charade keeps going, they won't even notice. What I mean by that is the homogenization of healers and tanks as well. There will undoubdetly come a point where someone falls in love with their job only to have it screwed up entirely for the sake of the ever-so wise majority.

You guys need to keep fighting. Healers are the ones that have to put up with everyone's mistakes. Disrespecting a healer is like disrespecting your mother for telling you not to do stupid shit. If they want you gone, they must be delusional to think the queues will fix themselves. I thought pressing 1-2-3 is bad as a DRK main, but 1-2 sounds like an absolute nightmare to me.

[ty_taurus]

Yes. Althought, the way these things are argued here, I wouldn't blame the opposing side for believeing we hold them responsible for our criticisms.

I feel my side, or the side that demands more complexity often tends to both belitle and dismiss players who are happy with the current design, we come across as condescending when adressing the issues and that is ultimately hurting our side of the argument.

I, personally am fine with ease of access. I'm fine with a low skill floor. Even if I hate what it has brought.

I see it as such a wasted opportunity too. I was hoping the prunning of skills would be grounds for new developpements. A new base to build upon as the devs said back in ShB launch. Apparently that is not to be the case. I just don't want healers to become stale as they are.

Something that I think is important to keep in mind is that casual players and hardcore players aren't two opposing forces. A game that's fun for hardcore players can also be fun for casual players, and if your game is fun for casual players but not fun for hardcore players, changing that won't necessarily take away from the casual experience. What that means in my mind is that there's very little reason to not try and have something that appeals to both, and if you already have a game that's fun for casual players, it becomes a lot easier to make your game also appeal to hardcore players because the foundation already exists.

It's important to mention that you can potentially break something for a casual audience, but I would argue that it's fairly easy to identity what will and will not appeal to a casual player base in game design that you're familiar with. For example, what would happen if we added Miasma back into the Scholar's action list--a 24 second DoT spell. How do you think casual and hardcore players would respond?

Personally, I'd strongly wager that hardcore players would be largely happy with that specific decision (though let's be clear that that's not the only thing hardcore players want for SCH. This is just an example using one action). I'd also wager that Casual players would range from either appreciating it or not really caring either way. In other words, there's nothing to lose in that regard. Now in practice, we would want to pay attention to how that fits into hotbar bloat and how that damage fits into SCH's performance.

On the flip side, returning pre-Stormblood Cleric Stance would not be a good example of something to return. Some hardcore players may appreciate it, but it would have an adverse effect on casual players because one of the key factors of old Cleric Stance was punishing you for using it wrong. This is what more casual players don't like--when the game kicks you for making a mistake, especially when that mistake already has natural consequences.

In order words, I believe adding depth and complexity in a way that is approachable and casual friendly is actually quite easy to do. You focus on how to reward players for doing something right rather than punishing them for doing something wrong.