Open World PvP

[VelKallor]

What I am trying to say is that the burden of proof is on the accuser and objectively it would be hard to prove their intent was to personal grief or bully another individual.

Deliberately killing a lower player for your own amusement is bullying.

The end.

In the end your stance requires me to care about the wellbeing of another.

Yes, it does. You cant handle that concept?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tream_sniping/

I suggest you read that suspension notice and take specific note of the GMs comments VERY carefully.

[Awha]

Deliberately killing a lower player for your own amusement is bullying.

The end.



Yes, it does. You cant handle that concept?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tream_sniping/

I suggest you read that suspension notice and take specific note of the GMs comments VERY carefully.

We are talking in the context of PvP area / server. So the GM's stance does not really apply. Once again the burden is still on you to prove it was bullying. Though yes you still have not provided me with a reason as to why I should care about your ought's. In the end what I am saying is the burden to prove one is bullying is not an easy one if we take the general rules of a PvP server or game modes into account.

"Cop didn't see it, I didn't do it". ... not particularly a morality I like to foster. I'm not going to pretend I didn't participate in bullying either when the opportunities presented themselves. I was a young and insecure person like some others for sure. But I have no illusions now that it WASN'T bullying and ascribing that same standard to others who participate in blatant abuse of power differences and exploiting systems to hinder the progress of others in playing the game, isn't unfair. Sure I'm biased in that I judge people on how I know I'd feel in the gankee's position and I'm assuming that the person who's doing it also knows what they're doing. But it's not a stretch at all to say that there are a lot of anonymous people on the internet who would revel in bullying others and will do so if given the framework.




Very true, but in the situation where someone says "I want to be able to kill people who are doing things I disagree with " or "I like killing noobs" , what are we supposed to get from that? Assume higher tactical purpose and reasoning? Or go with Occam's razor and say, welp.. seems like these people just want to carryout vigilante deathsquads and kill people who are lower level then them because they can't fight back.



Which was decried as a bully tactic. The players who were getting ganked wanted to do other things. They wanted to play the game and do other stuff, not be martyrs (strong word but.. it's basically true) so that they could either login to their top alt or call on guildies or faction mates to come and defend them. This much being obviously inferrable in that they were not seeking out PVP in the first place. The fact you even use the word "force" means you understand this was NOT what they wanted. Making other people do things they don't want at the time is not "fun". Having a purpose does not excuse method. If the PVP is so imbalanced or one sided that the other side has to be forced to participate, maybe it's not a great system.

To that point of "well you rolled on a PVP server", well yes, you did. And you agreed to participate in those rules of engagement. But what if I did it because my friends were there? What if I started when it was an equal thing and now it's crazy one sided and no fun to engage in anymore? What if when i did the "front" of battle was wayyyy farther off than the starting cities and lowbie progression wasn't this stressful mess of being constantly alert? Nobody signs up for something assuming it's going to suck for them all the time. People agree there are risks and disadvantages to everything but you're not obligated to be OK and happy with the worst case scenario.



I wasn't accusing. Your self admittedly different value system is the only reason I feel comfortable saying things like that. I appreciate that you are at least morally and value consistent and don't take it personally when discussing it.

EDIT:


They are only moot to you. Devs are not infallible and sometimes limited in what they can restrict by technical limits, gameplay intent, or legal restrictions. I understand you don't agree to the "social contract" but as part of the population you will be judged by it.

To be fair I do feel people should follow agreed upon rules established a social contract aka laws for example, but I will also not blame someone or think less of them for not incriminating themselves and asking for the accuser to provide proof of their crimes or evidence to support their claims. I do get what you are saying about occam's razor, but that is still based around a personal bias, like when I see a death squad killing lower levels, my reaction is whelp they must be board and want to do some pvp let me log on my main and get some friends over. As mentioned if someone lets their intentions know then sure call it what it is, but outside of that I really do not feel right just making an assumption, sure at times I do make the mistake though generally I will just ask a person why they are doing x or said x. Just as I am fairly transparent or try to be with why I feel or do things. As for the rolling on the PvP server, the reason behind why someone rolled on the server is moot, we cannot be expected to account for every possible reason why someone may be on the server, only thing we are reasonably responsible for is following the rules set by the devs. Sure they may not be perfect or take into account every human element but that is the nature and sure the community is free to judge me for my actions, but their judgment does not hold much weight in the grand scheme unless those in power also take that stance and enforce it. In the end sure they can judged but that brings into question should the court of public opinion hold more power and authority over those that have crafted the rules and enforce them? That overall is my issue with the court of public opinion and why I try my best to refrain from casting judgment until everything is out.

Do not get me wrong people are free to feel slighted or getting annoyed by such actions, but to frame such actions and inherently wrong because they do not align with your own viewpoint does not seem right to me.