Open World PvP

[Anhra]

Obviously, PvP players are not their target audience. So, great!

As long as the mode itself exist, they are. Like it or not.

[Artemiz]

As long as the mode itself exist, they are. Like it or not.

If PvP players are the target audience of the FF team then they have done a terrible job, they seem to have developed a massive game with millions of players and nobody plays PvP. If you own a patrol station, who is your target audience? Is it the person wanting to buy a Snickers? or a 20 pack? I think we can both agree your target audience should be drivers.

All of the argument like this in this thread always seem to assume the tail is wagging the dog and not the other way around. "it would be popular if it was better" No, it's poor because nobody plays it so it gets no love from the Dev team, that's because the target audience of FF MMO' s always has been PvE players and the player base it's built up reflects that.

[Anhra]

If PvP players are the target audience of the FF team then they have done a terrible job, they seem to have developed a massive game with millions of players and nobody plays PvP. If you own a patrol station, who is your target audience? Is it the person wanting to buy a Snickers? or a 20 pack? I think we can both agree your target audience should be drivers.

All of the argument like this in this thread always seem to assume the tail is wagging the dog and not the other way around. "it would be popular if it was better" No, it's poor because nobody plays it so it gets no love from the Dev team, that's because the target audience of FF MMO' s always has been PvE players and the player base it's built up reflects that.

Squeenix target audience is not PvE players, it is CASUAL players and the Dev's expect that anyone who reached engame, is suppoest to carry all of them trough all the content, even if it means that youre the one carrying all the weight. Even PvE content is literally starving from endgame content outside of raiding.

Back to the matter of PvP, it is poor in design because they lack the understanding that PvP is not made to be a casual thing in a MMORPG. Unless they take the risk of reworking things from scratch, which in turn might attract more players overall, things arent going to change for FFXIV PvP. Simply adding another Mode and then call it a day, simply wont do it, we have seen how far this kind of thing got us when they added Onsal Hakair and Rival Wings Hidden Gorge, and it will definitely happen again.

[Artemiz]

Squeenix target audience is not PvE players, it is CASUAL players and the Dev's expect that anyone who reached engame, is suppoest to carry all of them trough all the content, even if it means that youre the one carrying all the weight. Even PvE content is literally starving from endgame content outside of raiding.

Back to the matter of PvP, it is poor in design because they lack the understanding that PvP is not made to be a casual thing in a MMORPG. Unless they take the risk of reworking things from scratch, which in turn might attract more players overall, things arent going to change for FFXIV PvP. Simply adding another Mode and then call it a day, simply wont do it, we have seen how far this kind of thing got us when they added Onsal Hakair and Rival Wings Hidden Gorge, and it will definitely happen again.

This argument is completely lost on me because I fundamentally and strongly disagree with your definition of casual. You use casual like an ad hominem, I think there are plenty of people who used to be hardcore raiders that became casual as real life dictated it. I also think there are plenty of causal players who care about pulling their weight they just don't have 8 hours a day to play the game.

[NW3]

Obviously, PvP players are not their target audience. So, great!

Is that fair to the paying customers that engage in PvP?

[NW3]

As long as the mode itself exist, they are. Like it or not.

They can’t ignore us forever. Hoping for a AAA MMO PvP experience. The only competitor that is AAA MMO is WoW, both are subscription-based but WoW actually releases a lot of PvP content in each expansion. They even provide PvP players a sense of progression, something you can only find in PvE in FFXIV.

[Fland]

They can’t ignore us forever. Hoping for a AAA MMO PvP experience. The only competitor that is AAA MMO is WoW, both are subscription-based but WoW actually releases a lot of PvP content in each expansion. They even provide PvP players a sense of progression, something you can only find in PvE in FFXIV.

I mean, SE doesn't have to follow everything that Blizzard does. WoW has it's own PvP, which get more focus, and that's fine. FFXIV has it's own PvP, a side content which doesn't get a lot of focus, and that's fine too. SE just happen to focus on other contents in FFXIV.

Remember that we'll get new PvP contents next expansion. Let's just wait and see how it goes. I'm actually curious since they said it's a small scale one, and I would be glad to see another small scale PvP outside of Feast (and hopefully more to do than simply trying to kill each other).

[Anhra]

This argument is completely lost on me because I fundamentally and strongly disagree with your definition of casual. You use casual like an ad hominem, I think there are plenty of people who used to be hardcore raiders that became casual as real life dictated it. I also think there are plenty of causal players who care about pulling their weight they just don't have 8 hours a day to play the game.

A casual is by definition someone who irregulary plays the game whenever he/she feels like it and only aims for a uncorncerned and relaxed playstyle. This is not MY definition about them, but the way how it is as a matter of fact. And i despise the thought that difficult content gets dumbed down for those kind of people, just so that they can continue to play half-heartedly.

[Artemiz]

A casual is by definition someone who irregulary plays the game whenever he/she feels like it

It's a shame your post didn't end here, because this is in fact the only definition of casual. No more, no less.

and only aims for a uncorncerned and relaxed playstyle. This is not MY definition about them, but the way how it is as a matter of fact.

No, just because someone doesn't play every day doesn't mean they expect to be carried as an ice mage. I might put the game on in a bit, I might just go out and socialize instead, I haven't decided yet. I don't have a raid to practice for or attend so I will chose on a whim what I want to do.
By definition, this makes me a casual. I own that title. I also spent a lot of money on Hardware, including a £100 mouse just for this game, and I um, get my friend to count all the damage logs up when I play. I then ask him, after every single run I do how it went, I then use that information to improve. I don't need to improve, I'm not hardcore raiding, but I do it anyway and I don't like it when my friend says I'm not top of the pile. There are many many casuals out there like me.

And i despise the thought that difficult content gets dumbed down for those kind of people,

Stuff did used to be harder, that's true. Do you know who did all the moaning when it was? it wasn't the casuals wiping, it was speed runners moaning about the casuals wiping. Content isn't made easier because casual players can't handle it, it's made easier because roulette players can get toxic at the slightest hint of failure.

You really shouldn't be too hard on the casuals though, who do you think would be paying for PvP if you ever got it, the tiny percentage who pass Ultimate? or the vast majority of the players?

just so that they can continue to play half-heartedly.

Ad hominem.

[Thaciscokidd]

They can’t ignore us forever. Hoping for a AAA MMO PvP experience. The only competitor that is AAA MMO is WoW, both are subscription-based but WoW actually releases a lot of PvP content in each expansion. They even provide PvP players a sense of progression, something you can only find in PvE in FFXIV.

Its possible. The only thing more neglected than PvP is GC ranking and that's pretty close. They add PvP battle grounds and people do them til that they get the reward then no more. PvP is like a hidden feature, besides the Garo event, all you get is the season start and end announcement, no campaigns, no events. All they really have to do is put the rewards somewhere else and you could cull a lot of the backlash.