Open World PvP

[Artemiz]

If enjoying open world pvp makes me a bully, then by golly I'll be the biggest bully you've ever seen. All 2 feet of me!

I've already been over this. Liking PvP doesn't make someone a bully. Enjoying picking on people weaker than them, does

[Awha]

I've already been over this. Liking PvP doesn't make someone a bully. Enjoying picking on people weaker than them, does

I mean let us be real that is what you are saying cause in practice that is what often pvp boils down to someone better picking on another because the objective is to kill the other person.

Often followed by enjoyment for winning the match or having fun killing them.

[Artemiz]

I mean let us be real that is what you are saying cause in practice that is what often pvp boils down to someone better picking on another because the objective is to kill the other person.

Its fine if they have a fighting chance, max level players trolling around starter cities, killing quest npc's, attacking gatherers and crafters. Thats the kind of thing I find distasteful

[Awha]

Its fine if they have a fighting chance, max level players trolling around starter cities, killing quest npc's, attacking gatherers and crafters. Thats the kind of thing I find distasteful

Wait but you said; "Liking PvP doesn't make someone a bully. Enjoying picking on people weaker than them, does"

From what I could tell you never said anything about level. Though that is fair if you have other factors.

[Artemiz]

Wait but you said; "Liking PvP doesn't make someone a bully. Enjoying picking on people weaker than them, does"

From what I could tell you never said anything about level. Though that is fair if you have other factors.

If people want to PvP against like minded players thats fine, I like PvP games too. I dont worry about their K/D ratio in CoD. The game has reasonably strong skill based matchmaking anyway and we all start on a level playing field. The people who reverse boost so they can game tge system and get put into a low skill lobby just to noob bash are sad and ruining the game for others though, in my opinion.

There is an argument that we can somehow make PvP entirely optional and if we could, in the perfect world then cool, have at it. I just think at this point in the game its not really possible without impacting everyone else in one way or another and as the PvP player base is so small in this game I vote for the status quo, keep it to niche, instanced content. Improve it sure, expand it to servers or entire open world zones? Nah, not worth it.

[Anhra]

Its fine if they have a fighting chance, max level players trolling around starter cities, killing quest npc's, attacking gatherers and crafters. Thats the kind of thing I find distasteful

Gatherers have a Stealth Skill that is permanently active. As long as you keep your distance and have it active, noone will ever notice that you even exist.

As for the issue of "high level players killing low level players" there is but one easy solution. Normally, any settlement and especially towns, have Cityguards standing Guard that can and will delete anyone dumb enough to get close to them with a PK Mode active. Have them also patrol along the Roads and guess what, youre good even as a new player.

As something worth mentioning on this, The Cityguards of Elder Scrolls Online can make short work of criminals. I dont know the exact numbers on them, but i once saw two criminals duelling each other near wayrest in highrock, both of them seemed to be level capped at lvl 900 something and a single Guard killed both of them in a matter of seconds. Those Guards also have a ability that roots a player in place for a couple of seconds, making it sometimes quite difficult to outrun them if you are rather close to them.
If a FFXIV had Guards similar to this, all a new player had to do is just panic towards the next Guard and let them make short work of any greedy PKer.

And to make things more fleshed out, a (killed) PKer usually gets penalized in some way anyway. Somtimes it is reduced overall stats, sometimes there is a Bounty on them or they even get denied access to certain Towns or Settlements depending on the setting.

[Krotoan]

The op didn't say that playing in an open world environment where these things would be possible shouldn't be opt-in.

Please explain in way would you be able to do most of what they want if the other person had a choice of participation in the matter?
Killing people who disagree or are doing something they disapprove of? Given SOME may accept this as a valid risk if they had signed up for a PVP server in the first place. OP is very much speaking about a population they disagree with (and has specifically mentioned them) who mostly likes being left alone and would very very likely be opting OUT of this system if at all possible to continue to have their fun unmolested.

Killing people in the overworld while they quest?
"encourages partying while overworld questing"
Implicit risk says that this ISN'T something you could opt out of or you'd just turn it off to get the quests done.

I'm not saying OPT-IN PVP is bad. I'm saying what the OP wants is basically griefing. Not even veiled. They just want to grief players they disagree with and I can and will voice my distaste of it and raise a voice to say that as a player, I do not want this.

I mean let us be real that is what you are saying cause in practice that is what often pvp boils down to someone better picking on another because the objective is to kill the other person.

Often followed by enjoyment for winning the match or having fun killing them.

Liking PVP can involve: Enjoying a contest between players knowing you're up against a human instead of a script or AI. Enjoying winning. Enjoying knowing that at the end of a FAIR contest you are the more skilled player.

Bullying always involves: Using a stronger position to antagonize someone weaker.


PVP CAN involve bullying but it is not in itself bullying. If the aspect you most enjoy of PVP is finding weaker players with no chance to defend themselves and constantly killing them, then you are enjoying bullying.

[Awha]

Please explain in way would you be able to do most of what they want if the other person had a choice of participation in the matter?
Killing people who disagree or are doing something they disapprove of? Given SOME may accept this as a valid risk if they had signed up for a PVP server in the first place. OP is very much speaking about a population they disagree with (and has specifically mentioned them) who mostly likes being left alone and would very very likely be opting OUT of this system if at all possible to continue to have their fun unmolested.

Killing people in the overworld while they quest?
"encourages partying while overworld questing"
Implicit risk says that this ISN'T something you could opt out of or you'd just turn it off to get the quests done.

I'm not saying OPT-IN PVP is bad. I'm saying what the OP wants is basically griefing. Not even veiled. They just want to grief players they disagree with and I can and will voice my distaste of it and raise a voice to say that as a player, I do not want this.




Liking PVP can involve: Enjoying a contest between players knowing you're up against a human instead of a script or AI. Enjoying winning. Enjoying knowing that at the end of a FAIR contest you are the more skilled player.

Bullying always involves: Using a stronger position to antagonize someone weaker.


PVP CAN involve bullying but it is not in itself bullying. If the aspect you most enjoy of PVP is finding weaker players with no chance to defend themselves and constantly killing them, then you are enjoying bullying.

Let us be real outside of strict setting like ranked or a competitive mode one team will generally always put up against a weaker team. Especially if premades are involved, and wpvp is no different if people attack another’s from a more advantage position. PvP and bullying should never go hand in hand since that is just the nature of PvP.

Taking advantage of the weakest link or using an advantage is not bullying and each of those can still be found enjoyable. The aspect of bullying and PvP should never go hand in hand since that is a stance that could never be proven unless the person doing the action states otherwise it will always be based around an assumption of the person who was defeated.

I get the idea where you are coming from but as someone that enjoy competitive PvP in games like EOS, WoW, and Tor your notion is a lofty dream the reality is as mentioned outside strict environments the parameters you put forth are already ever met. Especially because those who are skilled tend to be friend other skilled players in their respective games and thus stack the odds in their favor.

While I do not think it is your stance one could say your stance views premades with stacked players are nothing but bullies because they enjoy playing with friends.

[Krotoan]

Let us be real outside of strict setting like ranked or a competitive mode one team will generally always put up against a weaker team. Especially if premades are involved, and wpvp is no different if people attack another’s from a more advantage position. PvP and bullying should never go hand in hand since that is just the nature of PvP.

As I specified. This can happen, but if this is the part you ENJOY.. then you are bullying.

Taking advantage of the weakest link or using an advantage is not bullying and each of those can still be found enjoyable. The aspect of bullying and PvP should never go hand in hand since that is a stance that could never be proven unless the person doing the action states otherwise it will always be based around an assumption of the person who was defeated.

People can say whatever they want, but it's pretty obvious that people speaking of ganking lowbies are enjoying that specific part of it. I don't need to prove it, people have outright said it in this thread. Not acknowledging that is being pretty disingenuous.

I get the idea where you are coming from but as someone that enjoy competitive PvP in games like EOS, WoW, and Tor your notion is a lofty dream the reality is as mentioned outside strict environments the parameters you put forth are already ever met. Especially because those who are skilled tend to be friend other skilled players in their respective games and thus stack the odds in their favor.

I don't think you do. I don't consider those games bullying, but bullying within the framework of PVP happens and people who revel in the bullying aspect of it make it worse for everyone else. There are people (such as myself) who enjoy this game in part BECAUSE it has no WPVP. I don't even have to think about it. I don't have to worry that some 12 year old with hours and hours on his hands can ruin my personal experience just because he's bored.


I played WoW (on a PVP server), AION, BDO, RO, AoC, all of which have PVP elements and were entertaining in their ways. What I never liked was someone within the framework of that PVP abusing it to antagonize others by bodycamping, or extreme high levels hanging out in lowbie areas, or camping necessary storyline NPC's, or ambushes in dangerous paths that exploited hitboxes and terrain.

These experiences drive people off and are good reasons for people NOT to want WPVP in a game that has never had it.

While I do not think it is your stance one could say your stance views premades with stacked players are nothing but bullies because they enjoy playing with friends.

One could say if they wanted to strawman my position. However it is not. I would however say a premade stacked with experienced players that abuses ranking ladders to play against lower ranked players (throwing to reduce rank) or buys new unranked accounts (smurfing is a pretty big problem in Overwatch) and stacks with experienced friends who have done the same IS bullying. The friends part is immaterial. The part we are discussing is strictly being a bully within the framework, not that the framework is bullying.

[VelKallor]

Taking advantage of the weakest link or using an advantage is not bullying and each of those can still be found enjoyable. The aspect of bullying and PvP should never go hand in hand since that is a stance that could never be proven unless the person doing the action states otherwise it will always be based around an assumption of the person who was defeated.

"Attacking a low level player to get higher level players to come and fight is the same as two 30 year olds beating up a 3 year old to get their parents to come out"- WOW GM 2016.