Healers Angry when PLD Clemencies

[Sqwall]

As a WHM main, I don’t really care if a PLD uses Clemency. Like getting annoyerd when a RDM uses VerCure and VerRaise. That’s dumb

LOL wow. This...this right here.

Kudos

[ZedxKayn]

This is a great sentiment as I have just given up on healers scolding me as I play all tanks in EX/Savage. PLD clemency is HIGHLY underrated and underutilized. Example: When I run Diamond EX as a PLD I tell the healer don't worry about me after tank busters. as my burst rotation lines up almost every time. I pop requiescat and Clemency once with no cast time and *poof*, it crits for around 80k HP! Then I finish out my burst with 3 holy spirit and Confiteor. Do I lose some DPS...yes. Do I care? Nope. Save the benediction, essential, excog for when it truly matters.

I have been running with pretty much the same healers during EX and some Savage where they know when i'm on PLD that i'll more then likely use clemency quite a lot. And they welcome it. The rest falls on the DPS/Heals to pull up the damage. Me being a tank my DPS isn't as crucial as theirs, as my main concern is to stay alive.

I did the math on one diamond EX and it's only a 9-10 min fight with my group.

Estimated for ease:

9 x 60 = 540 seconds (time of EX in seconds)

Clemency
540/60 = 9 (requiescat cooldown and amount of burst window per fight)
55,000 x 9 = 495,000 HP Clemency average HP gained if using 1 clemency per burst. (estimated value)

Nascent Flash + Inner Release
540/90 = 6 (Inner Release cooldown per EX run)
Nascent Flash used EVERY Inner Release
6 x 3 = 18 Direct Hits inside Nascent Window, my WAR is hitting for around 50k each hit on Diamond EX, 50% of that is 25k Heal with Nascent.
18 x 25,000 = 450,000 HP per Diamond EX fight with using Nascent + Inner Release

Clemency 495,000 HP
DPS lost 225,000

Nascent + Inner Release 450,000
DPS lost 0

For fun:

Clemency used 4 times per burst phase?
9x4 = 36 uses
36 x 55,000 = whooping 1,980,000 HP restored
DPS lost? 36x25,000 = 900,000 damage lost

Clemency vs. Nascent
495,000-450,000 = 45,000 clemency wins out standard
1,980,000-450,000 = 1,530,000 clemency CRUSHS nascent flash.

I laugh at those that think Nascent is OP, but when you look at the numbers PLD is PRO at healing itself over the course of 10 min.

Sadly this game is all about DPS and clemency is regarded COMPLETELY as a DPS loss and is relegated to a only in emergency skill. Sad because PLD can really throw down the heals better then any tank.

Uh... Nice maths but Nascent is still overall much more valuable than Clemency regardless if it could heal less because you don't beat fights by healing yourself, you beat them by hurting the enemy. If there's no damn good reason to clemency, just let your healers do their job.

[Sqwall]

Uh... Nice maths but Nascent is still overall much more valuable than Clemency regardless if it could heal less because you don't beat fights by healing yourself, you beat them by hurting the enemy. If there's no damn good reason to clemency, just let your healers do their job.

I agree with you. That's why I put the last line in there.

Just trying to point out the amount clemency can heal that it is laughably underutilized.

And by the way your comment about you don't win fights by healing contradicts itself.

That's like saying I wouldn't be so broke if had more money. Or I wouldn't have had to take that ambulance if I didn't have chest pains.

Next time I want you to try completing a savage and have the healer just DPS and never heal...bet dollars to donuts you'll be smashing that clemency button before you start reaming the healer. Healing is 100% required for just about everything in this game.

It's just a shame DPS is now the star of the show as it offers the best feedback loop for players. LOOK AT THE BIG NUMBERS! I personally lose it when I crit clemency for 80-90k. Like I question "Is that right?" "Did I just see 90k heal?" "That must be broken."

DPS being the focus since late Heavensward has fundamentally shifted this game into if your DPS sucks, you lose. Nobody cares about how much damage I can mitigate. Or how much I can heal you. Everyone thinks that if my materia slotted for TEN, DET then i'm doing it wrong and they will be more then happy to offer their opinion. I kindly ignore it and continue to be a pro tank be completely self sufficient until a tank buster. The devs were kind enough to give me broken skill and I am to use it to it's full benefit.

The Healing community complained so much about not being able to survive in PVE or offer any real benefit in ex/savage that SE doubled down on giving more focus on healers DPSing to contribute to the party other then healing.

I hope someday that SE will wake up and break this cycle that DPS is the only core gameplay aspect that matters. I would rather be jacking up my healing stats more IF the tank was taking more damage, or raid wides hit STUPID hard. I guarantee the DPS members would lose their collective S*%^ if they were about to die barking at the healers to heal them. The tanks can take care of them selves to a point (clemency, Nascent, Blackest Night, Sorry GNB).

If the game was harder and the bosses hit like trucks this clemency argument would be over. Until that day comes (prolly never), then I would say talk to your healer before each EX/Savage.

[ZedxKayn]

I agree with you. That's why I put the last line in there.

Just trying to point out the amount clemency can heal that it is laughably underutilized.

And by the way your comment about you don't win fights by healing contradicts itself.

That's like saying I wouldn't be so broke if had more money. Or I wouldn't have had to take that ambulance if I didn't have chest pains.

Next time I want you to try completing a savage and have the healer just DPS and never heal...bet dollars to donuts you'll be smashing that clemency button before you start reaming the healer.

I'm the savage healer. But if I were to tank and my healers wouldn't heal me when necessary, I wouldn't cast clemency, I'd wipe and promptly kick them for not doing their job.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, in a casual, non endgame raid perspective, does that really matter as long as the content is cleared in a reasonable amount of time? If the time in dungeon is getting bogged down because of overhealing, isn’t that more of a problem of the 2 DPS players’ damage output?

Peak vs competitent-but-casual we aren’t seeing a wipe-vs-success situation, but a few minutes of time shaved.

Imo, it matters if/when intended as snide BM -- otherwise, only insofar as it's wasteful of party resources (especially if oGCDs are being held at the ready because you'd just turn them or your Clemency into overhealing), much like failure to dodge AoEs or to use your own oGCDs.

Will it fail a run? No.
Does it make the run take longer? Yes.
Is it (in the aforementioned context, specifically) a mistake you could improve from? Yes.
Is generally good to make what improvements one can, especially in the vein of being more aware of and conveniencing towards one another? Yes.

Clemency is a hell of a heal, honestly, and prior to attaining Holy Circle was certainly worth casting outside of FoF for further healer AoE uptime, but its increased opportunity costs as of Shadowbringers (alongside, to some degree, decreased opportunities afforded for one's healers) will generally push it slightly below the threshold of just continuing as normal. It's not badly unoptimal, and still has a tremendous(ly cheesy-good) place for spot-healing, but using Clemency except in very particular circumstances does tend to make things both less effective and less convenient in a typical dungeon run.

[Sqwall]

I'm the savage healer. But if I were to tank and my healers wouldn't heal me when necessary, I wouldn't cast clemency, I'd wipe and promptly kick them for not doing their job.

Well a good tank would use their invuln before biting it because if i'm with a good healer my invuln is a last resort. And proceed to salvage the problem with lack of healing by using their skills given to them. I rarely use my invuln unless it's to cheese mechanics which is using a skill outside of it's "intended use". An "Oh S%*$ button"

Clemency is great for those moments, and can offer a great recovery if a fight goes south. This is my secondary "Oh S%*$ button". Pop Hallowed Ground. Clemency myself as needed. Wait for the healer to collect themselves. Move on. I don't throw shade at them. I help them best I can by staying alive. That's a tanks job. Protect and stay alive. I suppose you have to have that tank mindset of wanting to keep others safe by being the punching bag. 1,600 comms later I'm still main tanking and I will never hold that over others heads. They thank me for getting hit by that truck and I thank my healers for keeping me alive. Even if the situation get's dicey. We all learn.

That's what being a good tank is. Not being upset for not getting heals, they adapt and move on.

A bad tank would just be upset they weren't getting any heals and blame others for their lack of trying.


Don't get me wrong I AGREE with you that clemency should not be used as it doesn't offer anything that a healer can't address. I'm just arguing that clemency shouldn't be over looked and taken off of hotbars. It's to damn powerful to ignore it's great utility. I think everyone also forgets that it heals your target AND yourself. It's like Nascent but I can spam it and heal myself AND my co tank. Talk about cheese when you get setup with x2 PLD they are NIGH un-killable when they are healing each other.

[ZedxKayn]

Well a good tank would use their invuln before biting it because if i'm with a good healer my invuln is a last resort. And proceed to salvage the problem with lack of healing by using their skills given to them. I rarely use my invuln unless it's to cheese mechanics which is using a skill outside of it's "intended use". An "Oh S%*$ button"

Clemency is great for those moments, and can offer a great recovery if a fight goes south. This is my secondary "Oh S%*$ button". Pop Hallowed Ground. Clemency myself as needed. Wait for the healer to collect themselves. Move on. I don't throw shade at them. I help them best I can by staying alive. That's a tanks job. Protect and stay alive. I suppose you have to have that tank mindset of wanting to keep others safe by being the punching bag. 1,600 comms later I'm still main tanking and I will never hold that over others heads. They thank me for getting hit by that truck and I thank my healers for keeping me alive. Even if the situation get's dicey. We all learn.

That's what being a good tank is. Not being upset for not getting heals, they adapt and move on.

A bad tank would just be upset they weren't getting any heals and blame others for their lack of trying.


Don't get me wrong I AGREE with you that clemency should not be used as it doesn't offer anything that a healer can't address. I'm just arguing that clemency shouldn't be over looked and taken off of hotbars. It's to damn powerful to ignore it's great utility. I think everyone also forgets that it heals your target AND yourself. It's like Nascent but I can spam it and heal myself AND my co tank. Talk about cheese when you get setup with x2 PLD they are NIGH un-killable when they are healing each other.

We still talking about savage?
A good tank worries about aggro management, their rotation and how they use their CDs, I don't thank healers for healing me or tanks for holding aggro: it's literally their job, and likewise I really don't expect any gratitude for doing what I queued up to do.
Also good invuln usage is planned for TBs and such, not last resort, and if a healer will not heal when it's necessary in such content, I don't want to enable poor play in the harder content of the game where people need to know what they're doing, I'll just remove them asap.

I think clemency is a noob-trap similarly to rescue or cure I but they do have their very, very rare uses, not enough to defend them though imo

[Caurcas]

Clemency under normal, proper circumstances should never be used, and if you are having to use it something has gone terribly wrong.

[MoonPhaseAlpha]

Only use as a last resort and if with a WHM keep in mind they might let you go pretty low before using Benediction, so you don't need to use Clemency there.

Aye, trust in your healers.

And if you end up dying in a dungeon due to lack of heals, understand that the healer might be new and still learning the job in various game encounters. Give them a chance. Discuss in party chat so you're both on the same page if needed. Trial and error is bound to happen in leveling dungeons. Patience goes a long away as well as communication.

[shiraneko]

Clemency should usually be only used in emergency situations.

In a static setting, usually if: one or more healers die, helping prog through high raid/tank damage while healers are still working things out, healers underestimating their heals and clemency would cover otherwise lethal damage (it happens and it's just part of the process for any healer trying to optimize their damage and healing and testing limits, as long as you point out clemency was used so it can be avoided in the future)

In a pf/df setting, really the same except people might get mad at you in the same way rescue does. But imo better safe than sorry.

Clemency under rescuecat is a disgustingly op heal that'll make healers envious of its potency, but it should never be worked into your regular rotation. Unlike other tank's heals that can be used regularly as off GCDs, clemency is not only a GCD but it also consumes mp which you should be saving for rescuecat. Clemency under rescuecat shoud only be used as a last resort because that is pld's burst window.