Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

Nope. You did not phrase it as speculation; you phrased it as an observation, and observations (in this case, that initiating vote dismissal as tank or healer often leads to at least one other person agreeing) can weaken your assertion. It would have been different if you said "I think if..." but you outright stated it as though it were fact. You don't get to retroactively reframe the aforementioned statement as speculation.

The "was it peer pressure?" is the speculation, as your stated observation hints at this speculation.



But it is NOT the will of the group. It doesn't fall to the remaining "three", it falls to two of that three. Because in 4-man content you only need one other person to vote 'yes' for the motion to pass, then votations with premade are most likely to end up being a just the will of you and one other person who is most likely going to take your side. The remaining member may disagree with your motion, but they cannot contest what is, in essence, a rigged vote.

Therefore it could not be the 'will of the party', as two of four are powerless to the decisions of the other two -who are most likely to agree with one another- regardless of whether or not they would agree with a vote kick.

Your friend may still disagree with your motion, but nonetheless the bias that comes with being a premade is non-negligible. You hinted at this when you phrased it as "having a friend to stack the vote".



You are, in essence, rigging the vote. It's most definitely not moot, especially as you yourself mentioned that you bring friends for the purpose of having 'vote majority'. They're still part of the group, yes, but note the point above involving bias. Also to the point below where you acknowledged that it can be manipulation. (And it is manipulation, or at last an attempt at one)



It IS manipulation, and I do agree that premade votes should count as one, for the sake of fairness -- so in the case of a 4-man, if you have brought one other with you, then decision of the fourth member of the party would actually mean something. If you brought three others, then your group becomes the 'party' by default.

Alternatively, and even better, everyone can vote, and premade groups' votes are consolidated -- if majority within premade voted yes, then it counts as a single yes; if tie or majority no, then it counts as a single no.



They do. I have seen problematic people get penalised and/or banned for violating ToS even if investigations may take weeks. But there's little they can do to act on people who know how to violate ToS without leaving incriminating evidence. And that is exactly what you have been openly indicating on doing for a while now in this thread.

In the end though, the argument here is pointless since Square largely ignores these forums. I DO hope they pay attention though, because vote dismiss abuse is problematic.

Sorry my observation is still speculation, since I have no mean to prove that is the case or pressure was a factor for the vote to pass. Sure I may use my own experience to gather information as to why the vote passes but the reality is I do not know why the vote passes, since the information has one major flaw I have no means of validating the information it remains in the realm of speculations since I lack firm evidence. I am not jaded enough to consider my own personal experience as grounds to formulate factual response for the community at large. I do view so thus it remains speculative which is not enough to debunk an assertion. I am not pack peddling on my claim for me I tend to have favorable kick out comes as tank or healer and I stand by people should be more liberal with vote kick feature but did not think I would have to clearly state milage may vary.

An observation made from anecdotal evidence rarely ever is enough to rebuke an assertion in itself. If it was backed by data sure but we do not have the data.

We absolutely have no means of knowing why a vote passes or does not pass. We only have our own views on the matter but for the most part they cannot be tested so thus still remain in the realm of speculation. You are putting words in my mouth I have never said it was fact, I stated that from my experience as tank or healer vote kicks tend to pass. Though I do not know generally how it works for dps since those are the two roles I mostly play. I cannot say for certain tank and healers get favorable voting outcomes. I can say based off my experience I tend to get favorable voting outcomes as a tank or healer but that in itself does not make it fact. It just my anecdotal observation which does not make it fact.

Also in FFXIV the rules of the vote for the remaining three vote against the one. That is how it works, you can be against how it works but does not alter how voting works in this game. So once again using voting standards in place the only binary yes or no response that is void of bias would be did the vote pass or not. Unless the change the rules on voting the outcome will be the seen as the will of the group. If someone is. It happy with the outcome they are free to leave without penalty. You are making your stance against voting based around a ToS ruleset that has contradictory takes from GM's when it comes to difference of play style being valid reason for removal.

Sure on the forums it is easier to pass judgment but under the confines of the game all we have to go based off is the outcome of the vote.

I am sure SE has their reasons why the person being voted does not count but until that change happens the only hard and fast rule we can really go by is did it pass or not. Cause even though I mentioned I bring a friend along does not mean they will vote in favor of me because we are friends. People are free to make their own choice.

On a side note I would not be able against premade groups being counted as a single vote though I am not sure how the generally community would feel about that given that others have said this is not a major issue in the first place and seems to be only common to those who a personal standard that does not mesh with the general tone and vibe of the community. Though you are right it is moot cause SE will mostly likely ignore the issue since it is not prevalent to a large margin for most players.

if you don't want to play with "the bads in df" then just always go premade with friends or people you know in party finder. if your patience/tolerance is that thin that you can't stand inefficiency to that degree, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate how much you want to play an MMO.

If they ever change the way vote removal works then for myself I would do just that. Though for the most part I do queue with friends I rarely ever queue solo for DF. Since most of time I am just queuing to give people faster queues.