Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

Nope. You did not phrase it as speculation; you phrased it as an observation, and observations (in this case, that initiating vote dismissal as tank or healer often leads to at least one other person agreeing) can weaken your assertion. It would have been different if you said "I think if..." but you outright stated it as though it were fact. You don't get to retroactively reframe the aforementioned statement as speculation.

The "was it peer pressure?" is the speculation, as your stated observation hints at this speculation.



But it is NOT the will of the group. It doesn't fall to the remaining "three", it falls to two of that three. Because in 4-man content you only need one other person to vote 'yes' for the motion to pass, then votations with premade are most likely to end up being a just the will of you and one other person who is most likely going to take your side. The remaining member may disagree with your motion, but they cannot contest what is, in essence, a rigged vote.

Therefore it could not be the 'will of the party', as two of four are powerless to the decisions of the other two -who are most likely to agree with one another- regardless of whether or not they would agree with a vote kick.

Your friend may still disagree with your motion, but nonetheless the bias that comes with being a premade is non-negligible. You hinted at this when you phrased it as "having a friend to stack the vote".



You are, in essence, rigging the vote. It's most definitely not moot, especially as you yourself mentioned that you bring friends for the purpose of having 'vote majority'. They're still part of the group, yes, but note the point above involving bias. Also to the point below where you acknowledged that it can be manipulation. (And it is manipulation, or at last an attempt at one)



It IS manipulation, and I do agree that premade votes should count as one, for the sake of fairness -- so in the case of a 4-man, if you have brought one other with you, then decision of the fourth member of the party would actually mean something. If you brought three others, then your group becomes the 'party' by default.

Alternatively, and even better, everyone can vote, and premade groups' votes are consolidated -- if majority within premade voted yes, then it counts as a single yes; if tie or majority no, then it counts as a single no.



They do. I have seen problematic people get penalised and/or banned for violating ToS even if investigations may take weeks. But there's little they can do to act on people who know how to violate ToS without leaving incriminating evidence. And that is exactly what you have been openly indicating on doing for a while now in this thread.

In the end though, the argument here is pointless since Square largely ignores these forums. I DO hope they pay attention though, because vote dismiss abuse is problematic.

Sorry my observation is still speculation, since I have no mean to prove that is the case or pressure was a factor for the vote to pass. Sure I may use my own experience to gather information as to why the vote passes but the reality is I do not know why the vote passes, since the information has one major flaw I have no means of validating the information it remains in the realm of speculations since I lack firm evidence. I am not jaded enough to consider my own personal experience as grounds to formulate factual response for the community at large. I do view so thus it remains speculative which is not enough to debunk an assertion. I am not pack peddling on my claim for me I tend to have favorable kick out comes as tank or healer and I stand by people should be more liberal with vote kick feature but did not think I would have to clearly state milage may vary.

An observation made from anecdotal evidence rarely ever is enough to rebuke an assertion in itself. If it was backed by data sure but we do not have the data.

We absolutely have no means of knowing why a vote passes or does not pass. We only have our own views on the matter but for the most part they cannot be tested so thus still remain in the realm of speculation. You are putting words in my mouth I have never said it was fact, I stated that from my experience as tank or healer vote kicks tend to pass. Though I do not know generally how it works for dps since those are the two roles I mostly play. I cannot say for certain tank and healers get favorable voting outcomes. I can say based off my experience I tend to get favorable voting outcomes as a tank or healer but that in itself does not make it fact. It just my anecdotal observation which does not make it fact.

Also in FFXIV the rules of the vote for the remaining three vote against the one. That is how it works, you can be against how it works but does not alter how voting works in this game. So once again using voting standards in place the only binary yes or no response that is void of bias would be did the vote pass or not. Unless the change the rules on voting the outcome will be the seen as the will of the group. If someone is. It happy with the outcome they are free to leave without penalty. You are making your stance against voting based around a ToS ruleset that has contradictory takes from GM's when it comes to difference of play style being valid reason for removal.

Sure on the forums it is easier to pass judgment but under the confines of the game all we have to go based off is the outcome of the vote.

I am sure SE has their reasons why the person being voted does not count but until that change happens the only hard and fast rule we can really go by is did it pass or not. Cause even though I mentioned I bring a friend along does not mean they will vote in favor of me because we are friends. People are free to make their own choice.

On a side note I would not be able against premade groups being counted as a single vote though I am not sure how the generally community would feel about that given that others have said this is not a major issue in the first place and seems to be only common to those who a personal standard that does not mesh with the general tone and vibe of the community. Though you are right it is moot cause SE will mostly likely ignore the issue since it is not prevalent to a large margin for most players.

if you don't want to play with "the bads in df" then just always go premade with friends or people you know in party finder. if your patience/tolerance is that thin that you can't stand inefficiency to that degree, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate how much you want to play an MMO.

If they ever change the way vote removal works then for myself I would do just that. Though for the most part I do queue with friends I rarely ever queue solo for DF. Since most of time I am just queuing to give people faster queues.

[DrWho2010]

if you don't want to play with "the bads in df" then just always go premade with friends or people you know in party finder. if your patience/tolerance is that thin that you can't stand inefficiency to that degree, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate how much you want to play an MMO.

[Saefinn]

Nobody is complaining about sub-par performance such as messing up your rotation, or missing a mudra, or missing a GCD, what OP and everyone else is talking about is people adamantly refusing to meet the very bare minimum.
And read that carefully, not "Failing", but "Refusing".
Adding to that, as others have said in this thread and as I know to be the case, a lot of the time these people will chastise you for trying to help someone who's making honest mistakes, which further exacerbates the problem and 'infects' new players with this mentality.

And I struggle to believe that this accounts for half of people's encounters as suggested by OP. I acknowledge this exists (because I've encountered it), but I struggle to believe it's as big as made out. But yes, when they do it, it's wrong and a bad attitude and I have called people out who do this.

And in the 8 years I've been playing and offering my help, it's a small percentage of people who have chastised in return or refused to listen. And also not near half the DF groups I go in are 'bad' runs. Some don't know mechanics, particularly those who're new, but I found if I just explain the bits people are more likely to get wrong in the fights where mechanics are less obvious, I get more successes first pull than failures, indicating that people do listen.

But there's an attitude I've found throughout my time in playing MMO's that basically is "noobs don't listen and they'll always be terrible", but I tend to find it's the minority. And to some people, putting others down IS them trying to help and then said people wonder why people don't listen, which let's face it people don't tend to respond to that. I also find people have varying levels of what they consider acceptable performance, you'll see it on these forums too. OP's attitude if anything comes across less of a case of people who "refuse" but people who don't meet certain expectations.

And as a healer main, watching the complaints people have about healers, the most common one is about healers who refuse to heal and just DPS. Knowing how you practice and improve as a healer and with there being a DPS expectation, I end up taking the claim people are refusing with a pinch of salt, unless the person actively has said "I refuse to heal, I need my DPS bro". I replied to one such post earlier, so I'll just link my response to show what I mean than repeat it here. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5548324

I don't get how OP is what the community made them and somehow I've not developed the same apparent disdain. Whilst to a degree I could think "maybe OP is just THAT unlucky" but I've read their attitude about other players, I am more convinced maybe it's a case of "a little from column A & a little from column B"

[Caurcas]

And I struggle to believe that this accounts for half of people's encounters as suggested by OP. I acknowledge this exists (because I've encountered it), but I struggle to believe it's as big as made out. But yes, when they do it, it's wrong and a bad attitude and I have called people out who do this.

And in the 8 years I've been playing and offering my help, it's a small percentage of people who have chastised in return or refused to listen. And also not near half the DF groups I go in are 'bad' runs. Some don't know mechanics, particularly those who're new, but I found if I just explain the bits people are more likely to get wrong in the fights where mechanics are less obvious, I get more successes first pull than failures, indicating that people do listen.

But there's an attitude I've found throughout my time in playing MMO's that basically is "noobs don't listen and they'll always be terrible", but I tend to find it's the minority. And to some people, putting others down IS them trying to help and then said people wonder why people don't listen, which let's face it people don't tend to respond to that. I also find people have varying levels of what they consider acceptable performance, you'll see it on these forums too. OP's attitude if anything comes across less of a case of people who "refuse" but people who don't meet certain expectations.

And as a healer main, watching the complaints people have about healers, the most common one is about healers who refuse to heal and just DPS. Knowing how you practice and improve as a healer and with there being a DPS expectation, I end up taking the claim people are refusing with a pinch of salt, unless the person actively has said "I refuse to heal, I need my DPS bro". I replied to one such post earlier, so I'll just link my response to show what I mean than repeat it here. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5548324

I don't get how OP is what the community made them and somehow I've not developed the same apparent disdain. Whilst to a degree I could think "maybe OP is just THAT unlucky" but I've read their attitude about other players, I am more convinced maybe it's a case of "a little from column A & a little from column B"

Well, it's not necessarily new players that are the issue. If you get to them before the community does there is hope. No, my issues lie with players at cap, and player who have been playing for years playing in such a manner and infecting other players with such behavior. Furthermore, you are no longer a new player when you hit 80.

[Vahlnir]

Well, it's not necessarily new players that are the issue. If you get to them before the community does there is hope. No, my issues lie with players at cap, and player who have been playing for years playing in such a manner and infecting other players with such behavior. Furthermore, you are no longer a new player when you hit 80.

All I can really say is, I hope the community gets to them before you ever do. You are toxicity incarnate.

[Hikelos]

snip

You are misunderstanding the issue entirely.
As I and others have repeated ad nauseam, it's not that 9/10 you get into a roulette with the double Ice Mage Lalafells of legend, it's that if and when someone decides to sabotage you either willingly or because they feel entitled to your efforts, your only recourses are to either shut up and take it, or to leave and eat the 30m penalty.

Either way, you are at the mercy of the most toxic members of the playerbase.
They are completely empowered, unless you want to be toxic back to them with the same methods.

Let me give you a completely separate example.
I'm 99% on Ocean Fishing completion, I'm missing 1 easy fish and 4 easy achievements but got all the hardest stuff out of the way.
This means that I have done Ocean Fishing throughout the expansion, A LOT .
Now, on the boat you want the Spectral Wave to spawn, which has a chance to spawn when someone catches a spectral fish- the chance scales with the number of people, so a full boat will require more catches on average, and on a solo boat you will most likely spawn it on the first spectral catch.
What this means is that when people get on the boat and then AFK, they are actively cutting your chances and making your score worse.
You cannot fix it by "just playing with friends" because it's a 24player activity and you can't que as a raid.
Some routes happen once every 24h, and rotate so that for 4-5 days at a time they will be outside of your playtime. You don't have many chances, and it's already RNG.

If someone does this, there is nothing at all you can do. You can't even switch boat anymore.
I'm scared to even call people out for it, so I usually just put out a message in /sh that is aimed at no one in particular explaining how the spectral wave works.
And even that could be miscontrued as breaking ToS.

It could be that you don't feel this problem because of the timeframe and periods you play actively in, but I can assure you, it's very tangible and the reason I don't do EX Roulette unless absolutely necessary.

[SenorPatty]

All I can really say is, I hope the community gets to them before you ever do. You are toxicity incarnate.

People will come here, 20+ pages later, and forget this whole thing is really about OP venting about multiple things, boomer style. Don't forget that his first post is holding the community also responsible for illicit pfs, like somehow we had a concrete hand in that.

And this is just on the forums. Take that as you will.

[Caurcas]

People will come here, 20+ pages later, and forget this whole thing is really about OP venting about multiple things, boomer style. Don't forget that his first post is holding the community also responsible for illicit pfs, like somehow we had a concrete hand in that.

And this is just on the forums. Take that as you will.

I mean have you seen the amount of those that are sourced from Siren. Also, our NN is a couple of degens personal LS. All in all Siren is one of the bigger offenders to both of my points.

[ItMe]

People will come here, 20+ pages later, and forget this whole thing is really about OP venting about multiple things, boomer style. Don't forget that his first post is holding the community also responsible for illicit pfs, like somehow we had a concrete hand in that.

Lol I literally just did this.
I thought "how is this thread still going? What are they talking about?" And just poked my head back in here for the first time since about page 4.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

(snip)

Okay. I see the game you're playing (well, a post behind) and no. Seen it before, and you're not playing it with me. No number of times of you insisting ad nauseam that 'it's the will of the party!' and 'sorry it's just speculation' and 'no it was speculation not observation' will change the following things:

1. You outright stated, without ambiguity, an observation that if you are tank or healer, the rest of the party is inclined to go through with any votations you may initiate and then suggested that one use this to their advantage. It doesn't matter what you speculate the reasons for this observation may be. You observed such a phenomenon occuring and whether or not it is indeed true matters less than the fact that you have made this initial statement of your observation, followed by that specific recommendation.

2. You also outright stated that you bring along a friend for the sole purpose of having votation majority. This is a direct admission to your intention to rig the votation in your favour. Therefore any sort of 'but they are part of the party too' excuse becomes outright invalid, as does 'I cannot be sure why the votation goes through'. Don't be coy; you outright stated your intentions, and whether or not in practice your friend will actually assist you in votations matters less than this fact. You know what you're doing.

3. You assert that 'vote kicks succeeding is the will of the party', and normally that would be true. However, this is debased by the fact that you have made points 1 and 2:

You have admitted to observing that tank and healer vote kicks tend to go through and outright encouraged taking advantage of that. Whether or not this observation is true matters less than the fact that you have made this initial observation -and thus admit an awareness to a potential on your end to sway votes in your favour- and suggested its exploitation.

You also admit your intent to preemptively sway the vote in your favour by having a friend 'help' you and, again, whether or not your friend actually helps you matters less than the fact that are aware that you can ensure vote majority by having a friend by your side, and are admitting to having taken advantage of that.

And yes in FFXIV the rules for votation in light parties are 3 voting against one -- but in effect, if you have a friend with you then your kick is all but assured to go through. It's rigging, plain and simple, and it's no different from any other sort of vote-rigging. And of course, if someone disagrees with a kick they can leave -and I've seen this- but more people would be inclined to grit their teeth and quietly endure the run than queue again. Does not necessarily mean they don't disagree.

If it were someone else who had stated 'it's the will of the party!' or you have not made points 1 and 2 before, then there would be more validity to the assertion that vote kicks going through is the 'will of the party' - - as it is, what matters is you have said these things beforehand. You have intent. You are aware of what you're doing - or at least think so, whether or not it is so.

And yes, quietly rigged votes to an abusive kick cannot be proved without someone admitting in chat. That is exactly why this sort of rule-breaking is particularly insidious.