Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

10 character

[Lanadra]

That's what I'm thinking as well. Back in sb, i used to run df roulettes with some raiders from my fc back then and rarely did we run into players being detrimental to the run or sub performing badly. They just used regular rotations, they used most of their job kit, nothing optimal but even that was more than enough. Today, nothing's really changed from those times.

Something is not being said or admitted from those people who have bad luck every day or run into terribad skilled players everyday. Like honestly, every day man? If that's true, my condolences to that person's headstate. Imagine selecting a roulette and already dreading with disappointment and having votekick on speedial

Pretty much exactly as you say. I have, in the last 3 months leveled 2 healers, 2 tanks and 3 DPS jobs, all through a combination of DF and Deep Dungeons.. I can count the amount of times I've had to stop and vote kick someone on one hand. And that is with dozens of DF runs every day. Yes, occasionally you'll have a tank who needs to be poked a few times to turn on their stance, particularly in the <30 dungeons. Occasionally you'll have someone who thinks they're a red tank and pull everything, you either give them a poke, asking them to stop it and let tank pull, or as I have at times, just let them die as healer and then kindly ask them to stop rushing ahead. My experience is that they usually listen once they behold the results of their conduct.. it's exceedingly rare that I get someone who ignores me and keeps doing the same thing.

It is to some degree a matter of perspective and 'give and take', I see multiple people in the thread, OP off course being the most notable, speak of leechers, underperformers and such.. and I say again.. if that is someone's experience every single day.. then you're seeing things that aren't there. You're seeing a 'leecher' where there isn't one, you're seeing someone who is playing poorly and assuming the worst, in the case of OP in particular that seems to be their default stance.. they're not performing to my standards? They must be a malicious leecher looking for a carry.. rather than perhaps a first timer, or someone who simply cannot play optimally due to perhaps a disability or any other reason that isn't 'they're just being lazy bastards'.

Ultimately it is very simple, OP: You use Duty Finder? Then you accept that you do not have full control over the quality of your teammates or the experience you have. No, we don't need 'tiered duty finder'. No, we don't need 'auto kick if you don't meet some arbitrary standard dictated by the great Caurcas'. If you cannot accept or tolerate that you will have to deal with subpar players, people who for whatever reason aren't meeting the bar you set. Queue for DF as a premade, OP, we keep saying it, the only reason you keep ignoring it is because it's not the answer you want

[Awha]

Post limit sorry

Okay. I see the game you're playing (well, a post behind) and no. Seen it before, and you're not playing it with me. No number of times of you insisting ad nauseam that 'it's the will of the party!' and 'sorry it's just speculation' and 'no it was speculation not observation' will change the following things:

1. You outright stated, without ambiguity, an observation that if you are tank or healer, the rest of the party is inclined to go through with any votations you may initiate and then suggested that one use this to their advantage. It doesn't matter what you speculate the reasons for this observation may be. You observed such a phenomenon occuring and whether or not it is indeed true matters less than the fact that you have made this initial statement of your observation, followed by that specific recommendation.

2. You also outright stated that you bring along a friend for the sole purpose of having votation majority. This is a direct admission to your intention to rig the votation in your favour. Therefore any sort of 'but they are part of the party too' excuse becomes outright invalid, as does 'I cannot be sure why the votation goes through'. Don't be coy; you outright stated your intentions, and whether or not in practice your friend will actually assist you in votations matters less than this fact. You know what you're doing.

3. You assert that 'vote kicks succeeding is the will of the party', and normally that would be true. However, this is debased by the fact that you have made points 1 and 2:

You have admitted to observing that tank and healer vote kicks tend to go through and outright encouraged taking advantage of that. Whether or not this observation is true matters less than the fact that you have made this initial observation -and thus admit an awareness to a potential on your end to sway votes in your favour- and suggested its exploitation.

You also admit your intent to preemptively sway the vote in your favour by having a friend 'help' you and, again, whether or not your friend actually helps you matters less than the fact that are aware that you can ensure vote majority by having a friend by your side, and are admitting to having taken advantage of that.

And yes in FFXIV the rules for votation in light parties are 3 voting against one -- but in effect, if you have a friend with you then your kick is all but assured to go through. It's rigging, plain and simple, and it's no different from any other sort of vote-rigging. And of course, if someone disagrees with a kick they can leave -and I've seen this- but more people would be inclined to grit their teeth and quietly endure the run than queue again. Does not necessarily mean they don't disagree.

If it were someone else who had stated 'it's the will of the party!' or you have not made points 1 and 2 before, then there would be more validity to the assertion that vote kicks going through is the 'will of the party' - - as it is, what matters is you have said these things beforehand. You have intent. You are aware of what you're doing - or at least think so, whether or not it is so.

And yes, quietly rigged votes to an abusive kick cannot be proved without someone admitting in chat. That is exactly why this sort of rule-breaking is particularly insidious.

My assertion is that the outcome of a vote is the will of the party. It is a objective yes no response. The reasoning or potential manipulation be it by stacking the vote or through means of peer pressure are largely irrelevant and moot because the validity of those claims cannot be tested within the scope of the information we have now. An observation based on the information gathered can lead to speculation or assertion. I do not have enough evidence outside my own personal experience to make the claim that tank and healers factual get favorable outcomes. I do have information to make the assertion based off the voting system in FFXIV the outcome is considered to be the will of the group.

You were the one that viewed my claim as a factual statement regarding tank and healer getting g more positive outcomes. Sure I mentioned that a tank and healer tend to get favorable outcomes with votes swinging in their favor and I did encourage people to do so for themselves. Though it is no guarantee that others will have the same experience. I have never credited my experience as a baseline to go by so at best you can use my own experience as anecdotal evidence though by most people standards anecdotal evidence is rarely ever enough to outright debunk a claim. It needs supporting data, and sadly we do not have such data thus leaving the point in the realm of speculation.

I also said sure I bring a friend to stack the vote in my favor but the reality is my friend still has their own will. So we also have no way to know if my presence was enough to sway their vote one way or another. Most my claims can be used to as a means to attack my character but they do not Inherently go against or weaknen the claim that the outcome of the vote in FFXIV is the will of the group as per how voting works in it's current state.

In the end as mentioned I can only go based off my own experience, others may very well have a different experience with how successful their votes are. In the end you have yet to debunk the claim that operating within the voting system of the game how the vote outcome is not the will of the group. You have pointed out reasons why it is flawed but the flaws are irrelevant because we can only operate within the system that we have present.

Also my intentions are my own, and my intentions do not inherently discredit the claim that the outcome of the vote is the will of the group. Cause I can have all the intent to sway the outcome but without proof to support that it does do such outside my own anecdotal evidence does not seem strong enough to debunk the assertion set by the standards of the current voting system.

Anecdotes are funny like that, my views are my own I try to keep my own personal experience separate from my argumentative claims. Granted I know it can be difficult with my poor writing and stuff.

Also please note it is not a game you were the one that made the claim my personal experience is enough to weaken my stance regarding party outcomes. Which based off my understand of english I am also esl it does not seem to work that way cause I never stated that my own view experience was a factual outcome.

In the end you are using my own anecdotal evidence and observations / intentions as a means to say it weaknenes my claim regarding the vote outcome being the will of the group. Sure an argument can be made that my use us flawed but the burden is on you to prove the claim that my intentions did have in fact swayed the outcome of the votes which is hard to prove.

That is why I try to keep my own personal experience separate from my assertions of fact cause often my actions differ since I am not very logically constant.

You are, once more, moving in circles and missing the point entirely. Let me rephrase then:

The assertion from you that votations are the will of the party is weakened by an awareness you have indicated prior to having made said assertion of your role as tank or healer influencing whether or not others will agree with the votation or not. It doesn't need to be factually true - what matters is that you have expressed awareness and advocated for the exploitation of a supposed phenomenon that would supposedly influence the decision of the party.

And this is incredibly important. If it were someone else who had brought up the 'will of the party' argument, or if you had not made this statement beforehand then the 'will of the party' argument would have firmer ground to stand on.

Second, you have also demonstrated awareness that entering as a premade is wont to turn votations in your favour. There may be a potential for your friend to refuse to comply but, let's be honest, it would be dishonest to dismiss the very real bias that friendship (or at least acquaintanceship) brings, as well as the potential emotional pressure that may force them to agree.

And, again, what matters here is that you have demonstrated awareness on factors that would help influence votes in your favour and had admitted to taking advantage of the same / encouraging others to take advantage of it. This simple fact debases that particular argument from you.

Is it the will of the party if a vote kick succeeds? Possibly, but there are things you can do beforehand to influence the system, and phenomena you can take advantage of. And, again, for the hundredth time, you have demonstrated awareness of such means (and I can think of a few others you have not mentioned). This is what weakens this particular statement as coming from you.

Though of course, even if it weren't you saying this, acknowledging the second point - the influence of premades on votes - is enough to reasonably weaken the 'will of the party' argument. It's also well-known, and had been cause for several people I know to wish premade votes counted as one to avoid abuse.

Also I know the 'game' - - - and it takes on the form of purposefully dancing around the point, missing it and trying to attack it from seemingly related angles. I've seen it too many times in online arguments, and it's a scummy little practice.

This is the thing I never stated my own personal experience was the bases of which I formulated my argument that was all on you. As mentioned you made the choice to use my own anecdotal experience as a means to weaken my claim when I do not recall clearly stating that both were formed in tandem. One can exist without the other you. You made the assertion that my experience weakens it but once again the burden is on to prove it to be the case to prove a connection since you were the one that made the choice to draw the claim. To me that is scummy since your point of what you are arguing against my point is using my own anecdotal experience / intention which was never the bases of my argument.

This is mainly why I dislike doing online debates over forums without having a clear premise for the argument it creates this weird back and forth. I also tend to view them as standalone experiences.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

(snip)

You are, once more, moving in circles and missing the point entirely. Let me rephrase then:

The assertion from you that votations are the will of the party is weakened by an awareness you have indicated prior to having made said assertion of your role as tank or healer influencing whether or not others will agree with the votation or not. It doesn't need to be factually true - what matters is that you have expressed awareness and advocated for the exploitation of a supposed phenomenon that would supposedly influence the decision of the party.

And this is incredibly important. If it were someone else who had brought up the 'will of the party' argument, or if you had not made this statement beforehand then the 'will of the party' argument would have firmer ground to stand on.

Second, you have also demonstrated awareness that entering as a premade is wont to turn votations in your favour. There may be a potential for your friend to refuse to comply but, let's be honest, it would be dishonest to dismiss the very real bias that friendship (or at least acquaintanceship) brings, as well as the potential emotional pressure that may force them to agree.

And, again, what matters here is that you have demonstrated awareness on factors that would help influence votes in your favour and had admitted to taking advantage of the same / encouraging others to take advantage of it. This simple fact debases that particular argument from you.

Is it the will of the party if a vote kick succeeds? Possibly, but there are things you can do beforehand to influence the system, and phenomena you can take advantage of. And, again, for the hundredth time, you have demonstrated awareness of such means (and I can think of a few others you have not mentioned). This is what weakens this particular statement as coming from you.

Though of course, even if it weren't you saying this, acknowledging the second point - the influence of premades on votes - is enough to reasonably weaken the 'will of the party' argument. It's also well-known, and had been cause for several people I know to wish premade votes counted as one to avoid abuse.

Also I know the 'game' - - - and it takes on the form of purposefully dancing around the point, missing it and trying to attack it from seemingly related angles. I've seen it too many times in online arguments, and it's a scummy little practice.

[hobostew]

words

Just thought I'd give you a heads up cause the whole thing got old quite a few pages back but Awha doesn't care he just likes to argue. Dude will argue anyone in circles for eternity about anything.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Just thought I'd give you a heads up cause the whole thing got old quite a few pages back but Awha doesn't care he just likes to argue. Dude will argue anyone in circles for eternity about anything.

Ah, noted -- thanks for the heads-up. I've been in the game for a while, but am relatively new to the forums so I don't know that much about the personalities around here.

I've been starting to notice that much though, and it's become frustrating.

[Awha]

You are, once more, moving in circles and missing the point entirely. Let me rephrase then:

The assertion from you that votations are the will of the party is weakened by an awareness you have indicated prior to having made said assertion of your role as tank or healer influencing whether or not others will agree with the votation or not. It doesn't need to be factually true - what matters is that you have expressed awareness and advocated for the exploitation of a supposed phenomenon that would supposedly influence the decision of the party.

And this is incredibly important. If it were someone else who had brought up the 'will of the party' argument, or if you had not made this statement beforehand then the 'will of the party' argument would have firmer ground to stand on.

Second, you have also demonstrated awareness that entering as a premade is wont to turn votations in your favour. There may be a potential for your friend to refuse to comply but, let's be honest, it would be dishonest to dismiss the very real bias that friendship (or at least acquaintanceship) brings, as well as the potential emotional pressure that may force them to agree.

And, again, what matters here is that you have demonstrated awareness on factors that would help influence votes in your favour and had admitted to taking advantage of the same / encouraging others to take advantage of it. This simple fact debases that particular argument from you.

Is it the will of the party if a vote kick succeeds? Possibly, but there are things you can do beforehand to influence the system, and phenomena you can take advantage of. And, again, for the hundredth time, you have demonstrated awareness of such means (and I can think of a few others you have not mentioned). This is what weakens this particular statement as coming from you.

Though of course, even if it weren't you saying this, acknowledging the second point - the influence of premades on votes - is enough to reasonably weaken the 'will of the party' argument. It's also well-known, and had been cause for several people I know to wish premade votes counted as one to avoid abuse.

Also I know the 'game' - - - and it takes on the form of purposefully dancing around the point, missing it and trying to attack it from seemingly related angles. I've seen it too many times in online arguments, and it's a scummy little practice.

This is the thing I never stated my own personal experience was the bases of which I formulated my argument that was all on you. As mentioned you made the choice to use my own anecdotal experience as a means to weaken my claim when I do not recall clearly stating that both were formed in tandem. One can exist without the other you. You made the assertion that my experience weakens it but once again the burden is on to prove it to be the case to prove a connection since you were the one that made the choice to draw the claim. To me that is scummy since your point of what you are arguing against my point is using my own anecdotal experience / intention which was never the bases of my argument.

Also my friends are not shy to go against each other but we are also on the toxic side of things so I would personally never assume I have any say in their vote. That is why as mentioned both views are independent of one another, though since you wish to use my own experience as mentioned you have to proce the connection that supports your claim against my own experience. I did not connect the two because my experience will differ from others.

Ah, noted -- thanks for the heads-up. I've been in the game for a while, but am relatively new to the forums so I don't know that much about the personalities around here.

I've been starting to notice that much though, and it's become frustrating.

It is frustrating when people try to use a separate point that cannot be proven as a grounds to support a claim. My claim was a simple one the outcome of vote is the will of the party. Yet you choose to use my own anecdotal experience which even I cannot prove or disprove as a grounds to support your claim that it is not the will of the group under the voting standards set in FFXIV.

Even if I grant that all you do is prove my manipulation of the system which is in itself does not deter from the claim in my opinion I made regarding the will of the group being expressed through the vote.

Sure the system may be flawed but under the current system as stated the only objective metric we can go by is the outcome of the vote. How we wish or desire the system to work is kinda moot. Cause the reality is that is the only hard and fast standard we can really go by. I am willing to have a discussion on other ways we can measure the standard. Though as it stands only way we have is the vote feature.

[Penthea]

snip

/applause

Honestly I think OP is just on a trip to indirectly praise themselves. It's pretty awful they view anyone underperforming as a leecher.

We don't know these strangers we're grouped up with. They might not have played that class in a long time, they might not have done that instance in a long while, they might be tired after a long day, they might be having a bad day, they might be disabled so it limits what they can do, or that performance that you think isn't great could actually be their best. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. During my time in mmos I have personally known some bad players and among all of them only ONE was intentionally leeching. The rest lacked knowledge, experience or had a low skill ceiling. The first two can be fixed, but the last one...well not everyone is fortunate enough to have a natural ability for this sort of game. Personally in DF I'm happy as long as no one's performance is causing trouble that forces someone to work much harder, and as we know in DF the game doesn't require greatness for success. I reserve my higher expectations for ex and savage because that content demands it. In normal mode my expectations are not high because they don't need to be.

Some people here need to adjust their expectations and stop assuming the worst possible scenario for anyone not playing well. And for those who cannot well you can make a premade group. It's not as if the tools aren't there for you to get the experience you want.

[Caurcas]

/applause

Honestly I think OP is just on a trip to indirectly praise themselves. It's pretty awful they view anyone underperforming as a leecher.

We don't know these strangers we're grouped up with. They might not have played that class in a long time, they might not have done that instance in a long while, they might be tired after a long day, they might be having a bad day, they might be disabled so it limits what they can do, or that performance that you think isn't great could actually be their best. I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. During my time in mmos I have personally known some bad players and among all of them only ONE was intentionally leeching. The rest lacked knowledge, experience or had a low skill ceiling. The first two can be fixed, but the last one...well not everyone is fortunate enough to have a natural ability for this sort of game. Personally in DF I'm happy as long as no one's performance is causing trouble that forces someone to work much harder, and as we know in DF the game doesn't require greatness for success. I reserve my higher expectations for ex and savage because that content demands it. In normal mode my expectations are not high because they don't need to be.

Some people here need to adjust their expectations and stop assuming the worst possible scenario for anyone not playing well. And for those who cannot well you can make a premade group. It's not as if the tools aren't there for you to get the experience you want.

I've not once praised myself in this thread. Like I said several pages ago, I am average at best amongst my peers. It is objective fact that if you are not contributing to the best of your ability you are leeching. While there are valid excuses for this, they are absurdly rare. The majority of the time it is pure laziness. That's what boggles my mind, it is absurdly easy to be decent at this game yet a large portion actively chose not to be. Furthermore, I refuse to accept "DF is just bad, just deal with it" as the status quo.

[TaleraRistain]

I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and none of this is new. This is MMOs and the internet in general.