Tired of Zenos (spoilers)

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think it's a bit disingenuous to reduce the DRK questline to just a "crazy sob story", but otherwise I see where you're coming from. I'm still not sold on Elidibus being a repeat of Emet simply because they did similar things though, fundamentally they were quite different characters. Even if the conclusion to Elidibus was a little weak, it was still different to Emet's character arc. You can make anything sound like they're the same thing if you simplify it enough, but if you look at the details they are clearly two different characters arcs. I wish they'd spent more time fleshing out Elidibus too, but it wasn't terrible. I'm assuming they rushed it a little bit to get it out of the way before Endwalker, since the whole "sympathetic Ascians" were probably supposed to be a Shadowbringers thing. I'll be disappointed if they pull something similar for Zenos and/or Fandaniel, I'd hate if they try to flesh them out as a tragic sympathetic villains too. I don't expect them to do that though, I'm pretty sure that was simply a theme for Ascians in Shadowbringers.



Yeah, personally I don't think Zenos needs to be, or even should be, "improved" as a character. His personality and motivations are pretty fixed at this point, and trying to rewrite him into something else would feel dishonest and forced to me. I think the way to improve his continued inclusion in the story will solely have to be through setting a stage in which his personality fits the narrative and offers an interesting dynamic between him and the other characters, all while keeping him true to his character so far. Giving his part in the story a conclusion that's unexpected but fitting would also be nice.

Personally i felt the Elidibus writing was done incredibly poorly, especially because it just comppletely trashed everything interesting about him in ARR and it seems like they just completely forgot what they wrote back then. A lot of the things just seem pulled out of nowhere like the memory issues again, to push the sob story narrative. Unfortunately its what the community eats up as seen with various other things. I think base shb was pretty good, my main gripe being ti was advertised as this dark gritty expansion where we face our strongest foes yet, but the protag side faces no consequences at all. If this is whats gonna happen in Endwalker as well, i dont see it being very popular.

[linayar]

I think base shb was pretty good, my main gripe being ti was advertised as this dark gritty expansion where we face our strongest foes yet, but the protag side faces no consequences at all. If this is whats gonna happen in Endwalker as well, i dont see it being very popular.

Nah, I don't think people who want bad things to happen to the protagonist's side is a majority of the fandom. In fact, Yoshida talked about the theme of the ending being that of hope and all that good stuff and why paladin was chosen as the job theme in contrast to the world ending scenario the bad guys are seemingly trying to achieve.

[Theodric]

Nah, I don't think people who want bad things to happen to the protagonist's side is a majority of the fandom. In fact, Yoshida talked about the theme of the ending being that of hope and all that good stuff and why paladin was chosen as the job theme in contrast to the world ending scenario the bad guys are seemingly trying to achieve.

There's plenty of people who are fine with consequences happening to the protagonists, especially with how self righteous they end up getting at times.

Incidentally, the original theme of the game - much like the Ivalice games - happened to be grit and realism. It was certainly the case back in ARR and HW. It just so happened that, like so many other things, a very vocal portion of the community learned that if they take to social media and complain very loudly, such things tend to be dialed back by the writers.

The game has also never been about 'good guys' and 'bad guys' according to the writers themselves. There's rare exceptions, such as Zenos, but pretty much every other major antagonist has been sympathetic in some manner with understandable goals.

[linayar]

There's plenty of people who are fine with consequences happening to the protagonists, especially with how self righteous they end up getting at times.

I agree that there will be those people. I was responding to the statement on whether no consequence would be popular.

Incidentally, the original theme of the game - much like the Ivalice games - happened to be grit and realism. It was certainly the case back in ARR and HW. It just so happened that, like so many other things, a very vocal portion of the community learned that if they take to social media and complain very loudly, such things tend to be dialed back by the writers.

The game has also never been about 'good guys' and 'bad guys' according to the writers themselves. There's rare exceptions, such as Zenos, but pretty much every other major antagonist has been sympathetic in some manner with understandable goals.

I think there's a difference between someone being a bad guy and someone being a bad guy for reasons we can understand (or whatever word you want to use, if you get my meaning). I think none of the other antagonists are disqualified from being bad people just because of any sympathetic quality they may engender. The WoL can be sad while still killing them anyway because they are bad.