Tired of Zenos (spoilers)

[MarsAstro]

Also Ishikawa’s whole shtick seems to just be sob stories and no consequences for the protagonists which...gets boring fast. I really hope she changes her storytelling a bit for 6.0.

I wouldn't say that's her shtick, it's just been a thing in Shadowbringers, since the focus has been on making the Ascians more sympathetic. She also didn't single-handedly write Shadowbringers, and she's previously written other stories for the game that are entirely different.

Idk, they had depth before. If anything she kind of ruined Elidibus in 5.3. Emet was fine but she tried to repeat the same sob story gimmick with elidibus and it just fell flat and felt incredibly rushed (probably because it was).

Could you explain how you feel Ascians had depth before? Before Shadowbringers I never really saw any motivation for their actions beyond "we like chaos and want to bring our evil god back", which didn't seem too deep to me.
I'm not really sure how you feel Elidibus was a repeat of Emet-Selch either, they felt like fundamentally different characters with different motivations to me. Sure, they both had sad stories, but otherwise they were completely different. Emet-Selch was motivated by his memories of happier days, Elidibus couldn't remember who he was or why he was doing what he was doing. They couldn't have been much more different in their motivations and story arcs as far as I'm concerned.

I'd love for you to elaborate, if you're up for it, I want to understand where you're coming from.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I wouldn't say that's her shtick, it's just been a thing in Shadowbringers, since the focus has been on making the Ascians more sympathetic. She also didn't single-handedly write Shadowbringers, and she's previously written other stories for the game that are entirely different.



Could you explain how you feel Ascians had depth before? Before Shadowbringers I never really saw any motivation for their actions beyond "we like chaos and want to bring our evil god back", which didn't seem too deep to me.
I'm not really sure how you feel Elidibus was a repeat of Emet-Selch either, they felt like fundamentally different characters with different motivations to me. Sure, they both had sad stories, but otherwise they were completely different. Emet-Selch was motivated by his memories of happier days, Elidibus couldn't remember who he was or why he was doing what he was doing. They couldn't have been much more different in their motivations and story arcs as far as I'm concerned.

I'd love for you to elaborate, if you're up for it, I want to understand where you're coming from.

She also wrote the drk quests did she not? Which also ended up being crazy sob story. I felt the ascians had depth because ever since arr they always had a sense of mystery to them, from the things Lahabrea proclaims in prae to what Elidibus says and does in post arr. Nabri added some flavor and depth to them as well by showing us there’s still opposition among their ranks. There were always hints to what their whole idea was and that it wasn’t so black and white you just had to look deeper at things. As for Elidibus being an Emet clone, let’s see. Takes us to amaurot to show us past things, creates a dungeon for us, his trial is basically a hades copy and paste with the whole, let’s summon 7 wol, oh yeah and let’s have a panic button in the middle of the fight where he almost wins and then oh no a plot convenience happens. And then he’s defeated with a big light beam. As for Elidibus himself, you could tell his character was absolutely rushed. They pulled out so many plot holes and plot conveniences to rush and get rid of him. The memory loss was a total asspull considering his dialogue in ARR and it just seemed like an excuse to have shitty fanservice as a trial. They gave him only 2 patches to try and flesh out his character and failed miserably, whereas we have zenos now who’s had more screen time than him and he’s only been around since 4.0 whereas Elidibus has been around since 2.0.

[Lauront]

I wouldn't say that's her shtick, it's just been a thing in Shadowbringers, since the focus has been on making the Ascians more sympathetic. She also didn't single-handedly write Shadowbringers, and she's previously written other stories for the game that are entirely different.



Could you explain how you feel Ascians had depth before? Before Shadowbringers I never really saw any motivation for their actions beyond "we like chaos and want to bring our evil god back", which didn't seem too deep to me.
I'm not really sure how you feel Elidibus was a repeat of Emet-Selch either, they felt like fundamentally different characters with different motivations to me. Sure, they both had sad stories, but otherwise they were completely different. Emet-Selch was motivated by his memories of happier days, Elidibus couldn't remember who he was or why he was doing what he was doing. They couldn't have been much more different in their motivations and story arcs as far as I'm concerned.

I'd love for you to elaborate, if you're up for it, I want to understand where you're coming from.

He's getting at the many points that made Elidibus intriguing in contrast to the rest, e.g. his more peaceful approach; his focus on the balance between light and dark; Nabriales restraining himself from harming Minfilia because it would displease Elidibus. The fact that he would sometimes work at odds with the other Ascians to achieve their goals, and course-correct them when he felt they went astray. And this all on top of the fact that he was Zodiark's Emissary. There were plenty of points that suggested more depth to the Ascians before we got SHB, because the mere fact that Zodiark's Emissary distinguished himself thus from the other Ascians suggested there was a bigger picture unfolding which we weren't privy to. He flatlined a bit towards the later half of SB and obviously there were plenty of ways they could've resolved these points, particularly regarding the balance between light and dark. I also found Lahabrea's Praetorium speech intriguing, FWIW, and I had hoped they'd tie in the way in which he considered Hydaelyn to be a parasite to Elidibus's "balance" schtick. I'm keen to see how they handle him, if he actually appears in the raid - he deserves a proper encounter and fulfillment of his story.

So he's basically referring to the Elidibus before 5.3. His more amicable approach and suggestion of deeper knowledge led many - myself included - to think he would be the one to play Emet's role. Emet's introduction and the way they handled the latter half of SB sort of limited their options, I suppose.

Also he could recall who he was but it's the why's and wherefore's that fell away as time went on. It was a deliberate choice, because he didn't want painful memories to deter him from such an important duty. Nonetheless, it's a 5.3 artefact. I don't think the way they dealt with it in 5.3 was bad, per se (for example I was concerned they'd turn him into some cackling villain), but I'm not also thrilled by the execution, and not particularly convinced by the memory loss approach; up to 5.2 I was still enjoying the show. The story they went with in the Amaurot gauntlet was an importation in some ways of the messaging of the DRK quests into the MSQ - not a bad thing, but I think they would've been better served by utilising the approach they took in Emet's short story to explain their perspective on the sundered life forms and the pain seeing their people reduced to such forms caused them, since Elidibus shared this perspective. I also found the whole way they finally dealt with the balance theme a bit weak, and they could've done more, e.g. explain how the presence of one or the other of the "eldest" of Primals in the Aetherial Sea affects it, how the sundered state of the world impacts it, and so on, and taken it in that direction.

Granted, if they give Fandaniel a compelling backstory, don't let Zenos hog the spotlight and "surprise" me with how they deal with Zodiark and Hydaelyn regarding the Zenodiark thing everyone expects, I'll be pleased. I thought that at least the moonshot of the derplander emulating Elidibus's form - presumably picking up on the theme of salvation which he embodied - showed promise.

Ishikawa is a good writer, but adopting the same approach to sympathy building across more antagonists will get old quickly for me. I am a person who is more interested in setting lore than feelz, and I want Fandaniel at the least to deliver on the former, if nothing else. Applying such an approach to Zenos would disappoint me even more, particularly after Yoshi has said they don't do half-measures when it comes to sympathetic vs unsympathetic characters, and he specifically names Zenos as an example of the latter. So I am not taking a blind faith approach in her writing ability to "improve" him.

JeuxOnline: In a previous interview, you said it was quite challenging to create realistic villains from one expansion to another. Ran’jit & Solus are great in that way: they look very strong, fearsome & crazy. How do you manage to keep getting inspired and make charismatic bad guys for the story not to be redundant?

Naoki Yoshida: That is a very difficult question to answer. So when making the villain characters, what the dev team tries to keep in mind is that they have to stand out, either by being really hateful and the players really hate them or still kinda loveable in a way. So for example Zenos is some sort of entity of ultimate Evil. [spoiler]But for Emet-Selch, he just wants to restore his world, that he believes is the best world.[spoiler]. So each time we create a new villain, we try to put them on either end of the scale, either complete evil or with having their own belief, their own goal. Having someone in-between is quite half-baked and is something the dev team wants to avoid.

[Rosenstrauch]

True, but he never specifies how really, and it's contradicted by Zenos's own recollection, as he states it's a shame Elidibus just fled and he'd have enjoyed a fight against himself, or some such twaddle. Elidibus is powerful enough by that point to at least be able to go against the WoL who had already bested Zenos and his Shinryu form by that point, and who benefits from Hydaelyn's protection via the Blessing.

To suggest he wouldn't even register on Zenos's radar, while Gaius and Estinien would, requires suspension of disbelief, IMO. What does stand out is the fact that he's a primal, and Zenos has managed to take control of one before, and may well have given an indication that he could do so again if he so pleased. So I believe he overpowered him in that sense - with Zenos being a potential asset and with nothing to gain by then in fighting him, he took his leave.

Another thing worth bearing in mind is that, in 5.2, Zenos revealed that he's had memories of the Final Days plaguing his dreams since he was a child. It's not impossible that the reason for this was a failed attempt by Emet-Selch to ascend him as a member of the Convocation, in which case it becomes a question of who Emet-Selch was attempting to awaken. It could well be that Zenos was able to oust Elidibus without realizing it by virtue of a weird memory-based technicality.

Unfortunately, Zenos has barely ever expressed interest in anything other than his next big fight. I worry that these things will be ignored going forward by virtue of none of the characters in the story caring to explore them. Actually, my biggest worry is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark will be among "these things getting ignored"—I can easily imagine us going the entirety of 6.0 with hardly a mention of either, only to have it be revealed that Zenos dealt with both offscreen.

And it's not like that treatment is unprecedented, either. They killed off Minfilia and replaced her with someone who knows absolutely nothing about Hydaelyn, doesn't care to learn about her, and explicitly can't leave her own world even if she wanted to. And out of the Scions, the only ones who have any sort of connection to Hydaelyn are the Students of Baldesion, of which there are only two survivors: Krile "What story relevance?" Baldesion and... G'raha Tia.

[Lauront]

Good points and the Ryne one hadn't occurred to me in that light. Let's hope they don't just gloss over them. There were some suggestions in some of the JP interviews around 5.2 that Yoshi took the perspective that the primals mattered less than the intentions of their summoners. That's true to a degree but I still would like them to delve deeper into the story of the ancients and not just cast aside the two ancient primals when telling that story through such methods as you describe. So far I'm cautiously optimistic based on the announcement event but tempering expectations.

[MarsAstro]

She also wrote the drk quests did she not? Which also ended up being crazy sob story. I felt the ascians had depth because ever since arr [... snip for character limit ...] They gave him only 2 patches to try and flesh out his character and failed miserably, whereas we have zenos now who’s had more screen time than him and he’s only been around since 4.0 whereas Elidibus has been around since 2.0.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to reduce the DRK questline to just a "crazy sob story", but otherwise I see where you're coming from. I'm still not sold on Elidibus being a repeat of Emet simply because they did similar things though, fundamentally they were quite different characters. Even if the conclusion to Elidibus was a little weak, it was still different to Emet's character arc. You can make anything sound like they're the same thing if you simplify it enough, but if you look at the details they are clearly two different characters arcs. I wish they'd spent more time fleshing out Elidibus too, but it wasn't terrible. I'm assuming they rushed it a little bit to get it out of the way before Endwalker, since the whole "sympathetic Ascians" were probably supposed to be a Shadowbringers thing. I'll be disappointed if they pull something similar for Zenos and/or Fandaniel, I'd hate if they try to flesh them out as a tragic sympathetic villains too. I don't expect them to do that though, I'm pretty sure that was simply a theme for Ascians in Shadowbringers.

Ishikawa is a good writer, but adopting the same approach to sympathy building across more antagonists will get old quickly for me. I am a person who is more interested in setting lore than feelz, and I want Fandaniel at the least to deliver on the former, if nothing else. Applying such an approach to Zenos would disappoint me even more, particularly after Yoshi has said they don't do half-measures when it comes to sympathetic vs unsympathetic characters, and he specifically names Zenos as an example of the latter. So I am not taking a blind faith approach in her writing ability to "improve" him.

Yeah, personally I don't think Zenos needs to be, or even should be, "improved" as a character. His personality and motivations are pretty fixed at this point, and trying to rewrite him into something else would feel dishonest and forced to me. I think the way to improve his continued inclusion in the story will solely have to be through setting a stage in which his personality fits the narrative and offers an interesting dynamic between him and the other characters, all while keeping him true to his character so far. Giving his part in the story a conclusion that's unexpected but fitting would also be nice.

[MarsAstro]

I also just want to point out that I see way more likes for people with complaints and negative outlooks, than those with positive outlooks.

Seems to be a lot of pessimism for what's to come. It's almost like some people in here want Endwalker to be bad.

Unfortunately, Zenos has barely ever expressed interest in anything other than his next big fight. I worry that these things will be ignored going forward by virtue of none of the characters in the story caring to explore them. Actually, my biggest worry is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark will be among "these things getting ignored"—I can easily imagine us going the entirety of 6.0 with hardly a mention of either, only to have it be revealed that Zenos dealt with both offscreen.

Oh my god, why would you say that? That sounds atrocious, now I'm worried. I hope to god they have more sense than to write something like this.

So far I'm cautiously optimistic based on the announcement event but tempering expectations.

Heh.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I also just want to point out that I see way more likes for people with complaints and negative outlooks, than those with positive outlooks.

Seems to be a lot of pessimism for what's to come. It's almost like some people in here want Endwalker to be bad.



Oh my god, why would you say that? That sounds atrocious, now I'm worried. I hope to god they have more sense than to write something like this.



Heh.

I don’t think it’s people wanting it to be bad, it’s just the approach SE has taken so far with the story has been very....not good. They’ve started catering to the crowd as shown with Graha which yoshi p even said himself, only reason he’s alive is because the community took a liking to him. So if they’re going to pander to the crowd more, things won’t be looking good for the future. Especially because, as seen in 5.3, this pandering can cause other, more important characters to be sidelined and treated poorly(Elidibus) so that the community gets their way. Which in turn just caused needless plot holes that makes the story a mess.

[Lauront]

I also just want to point out that I see way more likes for people with complaints and negative outlooks, than those with positive outlooks.

It really revolves around a lot of people here (and elsewhere) having concerns about Zenos dominating 6.0, having been dragged back into the spotlight after 4.0. I'm keeping an open mind to it because there's some promising elements with Fandaniel, but I'm also not going to say I don't share some of these concerns. I mainly enjoy the Ascians in the MSQ lore. There's some other interesting stuff to me, e.g. the Ivalice plotlines, but by and large I am of course eager to see how the Ascian story is wrapped up and whether something to my liking follows it.

I don't share in the excitement for a lot of the fan fave protagonists, and especially not G'raha, so I am also keen to see how that cast will be shaping up, to see whether the game post 6.0 holds my interest story-wise. It's definitely not that any of us want EW to be bad, though.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think it's a bit disingenuous to reduce the DRK questline to just a "crazy sob story", but otherwise I see where you're coming from. I'm still not sold on Elidibus being a repeat of Emet simply because they did similar things though, fundamentally they were quite different characters. Even if the conclusion to Elidibus was a little weak, it was still different to Emet's character arc. You can make anything sound like they're the same thing if you simplify it enough, but if you look at the details they are clearly two different characters arcs. I wish they'd spent more time fleshing out Elidibus too, but it wasn't terrible. I'm assuming they rushed it a little bit to get it out of the way before Endwalker, since the whole "sympathetic Ascians" were probably supposed to be a Shadowbringers thing. I'll be disappointed if they pull something similar for Zenos and/or Fandaniel, I'd hate if they try to flesh them out as a tragic sympathetic villains too. I don't expect them to do that though, I'm pretty sure that was simply a theme for Ascians in Shadowbringers.



Yeah, personally I don't think Zenos needs to be, or even should be, "improved" as a character. His personality and motivations are pretty fixed at this point, and trying to rewrite him into something else would feel dishonest and forced to me. I think the way to improve his continued inclusion in the story will solely have to be through setting a stage in which his personality fits the narrative and offers an interesting dynamic between him and the other characters, all while keeping him true to his character so far. Giving his part in the story a conclusion that's unexpected but fitting would also be nice.

Personally i felt the Elidibus writing was done incredibly poorly, especially because it just comppletely trashed everything interesting about him in ARR and it seems like they just completely forgot what they wrote back then. A lot of the things just seem pulled out of nowhere like the memory issues again, to push the sob story narrative. Unfortunately its what the community eats up as seen with various other things. I think base shb was pretty good, my main gripe being ti was advertised as this dark gritty expansion where we face our strongest foes yet, but the protag side faces no consequences at all. If this is whats gonna happen in Endwalker as well, i dont see it being very popular.