Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Xau]

Though little was ever made of it in PvE, until StB we also had the ability to rip buffs off targets via One-Ilm Punch. Mob enraged for triple damage on their next attack (an already triple-damage special attack)? Rip it; now it doesn't matter that we failed to kill the mob in time. In PvP, the enemy Summoner pops Trance? Just eat it. Enochian? Sorry, mate. (Now, the latter's probably exactly why it was turned into a no-DR stun instead, but still... it was funny.)

one ilm punch was a one trick skill, its use was almost sorely for removing stoneskin on enemies on arr and hw, since it hardly affected anything else, and i mean, it was capable to remove other stuff, but dmg buffs were not one of those things what one ilm punch was capable to remove
and i mean, if one ilm punch was capable to do what you mentioned, the comunity could not have called one ilm punch a useless skill, and neither the dev team make a quest mention it as joke in a quest

[wereotter]

one ilm punch was a one trick skill, its use was almost sorely for removing stoneskin on enemies, since it hardly affected anything else, and i mean, it was capable to remove other stuff, but dmg buffs were not one of those things what one ilm punch was capable to remove

You could actually, I remember using it in The Antitower to take the berserk buff off some of the enemies in there back in the day.

But yes, it was a pretty useless skill. Which isn't to say they couldn't bring it back as part of a high damage combo. I had suggested it could work similar to the gunbreaker high damage combo, could work into tornado kick then six sided star

[Kabooa]

one ilm punch was a one trick skill, its use was almost sorely for removing stoneskin on enemies on arr and hw, since it hardly affected anything else, and i mean, it was capable to remove other stuff, but dmg buffs were not one of those things what one ilm punch was capable to remove
and i mean, if one ilm punch was capable to do what you mentioned, the comunity could not have called one ilm punch a useless skill, and neither the dev team make a quest mention it as joke in a quest

This is partly because you can't have required skills and only give them to one particular job in a game that doesn't have the party slots to have them all.

There's a reason so many things end up in the role menu.

[Shurrikhan]

one ilm punch was a one trick skill, its use was almost sorely for removing stoneskin on enemies on arr and hw, since it hardly affected anything else, and i mean, it was capable to remove other stuff, but dmg buffs were not one of those things what one ilm punch was capable to remove

King's Might in Amdapor Keep. Berserk in Antitower. Enrage off Gigas mobs. I'm sure there are a few more I'm missing. I don't think it worked on bosses, else it might have been useful on the oliphant in Dusk Vigil and the dino boss in the 53 dungeon. But, boss vs. non-boss was the only distinction. Any buff could be removed from a typical mob.

Again, "little was ever made of it in PvE." But that's only because they never bothered to give the vast majority of mobs any (meaningful) buffs, not because the skill itself was fundamentally flawed. It's just a matter of having removed the same skill from Archer in 1.18 (and I could have sworn one other class had it, too), such that it ran the risk of being required or unimpactful.

Heck, if they wanted it to be impactful without breaking fights, they could have just turned it into a (modified) buff-steal instead of a buff-purge.

[Sqwall]

Why is this even an argument? One Ilm Punch...really? OK...

One Ilm punch was taken off my hotbar in ARR after I realized how awful it was potency wise. It's benefits did not outweigh it's usefulness. Which is why it was also removed from the game. The fact that it took 6-7 years is beyond me.

Same goes for Rage of Halone str debuff, or shield swipe pacification, or Blind from flash. None of these affected bosses. There were a VERY select few that you could pacify and I don't think any of them you could blind with flash.

Flash and Shield Swipe were removed, and the str debuff from Halone was taken away.
I brought this up YEARS ago for paladin.

This was the same issue with one ilm punch. I don't need a skill that is used as a party favor to pigeon hole the class. Lord of the Rings online attempted to do this by giving a debuff skill to every class, but not all classes debuffed the same way. I fell into the column where I had THE best debuff skill in the game as. It was fast and it struck 3 times, which allowed to remove 3 stacks of buffs from a raid boss. Guess what...it was removed next expansion.

The only way this would work is if you give a "One Ilm Punch" skill to everyone and make it work exactly the same. i.e. leg sweep, kick.

This is why I never used one ilm punch as it wasn't WORTH using for me. This also goes for TK during trash pulls. I really only use TK during e5 with anatman and thats about it. Now the question is remove TK or rework it to actually be useful.

[Shurrikhan]

....

[OIP] Again, I'm not saying OIP was some great skill concept, just that they never even tried to make anything of it, which is a little disheartening for any mechanic.

[Flash] I could of sworn there was an r/ffxiv post that went into detail on Blind, noting that it actually worked on most bosses, but was just less noticeable because Blind would reduce Accuracy stat, which bosses had a higher value of. Though, of course, what little chance you increased of a boss missing was worth a whole lot more than your average mob. So, its chance reduction was less noticeable, but each miss caused was worth way more. In general, it was probably worth about as much as Featherfoot cross-classed, or a bit more depending on (anti)synergies with your other forms of protection via or against RNG (Awareness, Dark Dance, Dark Arts - Dark Dance, Featherfoot, Raw Intuition, Shelltron, Bulwark, etc.).

[RoH] I'm glad the STR debuff was removed from PLD and the INT debuff from MNK, but not because either was useless. They were effectively 10% physical or magical damage down, respectively. It was based on dull maintenance, but over a whole fight they were no trivial utility.

[SSw] Shield Swipe, likewise, probably would have been just fine, and definitely fitting for PLD, if it had just not effective accelerated the auto-attack that would follow the special it cancelled and if Shield Swipe was oGCD without such a long cooldown. It didn't inflict a DR category that'd be useful to anyone else, but allowed the PLD to ignore certain movement requirements by, well, removing the need to move ('silencing' the incoming physical AoE or preventing the next 5 seconds' of tankbusters). It, too, was lackluster, not fundamentally flawed.

[TK] I'd rather keep it, but that'd require that the mechanic it's based on (GL) isn't a mere pretense (i.e. a once-per-instance prelude to normal combat). Even reworking GL, I'd rather TK play a part in that rather than being yet another skill aborted as if that were all that could be done... after having been intentionally gutted.

[Sqwall]

[SSw] Shield Swipe, likewise, probably would have been just fine, and definitely fitting for PLD, if it had just not effective accelerated the auto-attack that would follow the special it cancelled and if Shield Swipe was oGCD without such a long cooldown. It didn't inflict a DR category that'd be useful to anyone else, but allowed the PLD to ignore certain movement requirements by, well, removing the need to move ('silencing' the incoming physical AoE or preventing the next 5 seconds' of tankbusters). It, too, was lackluster, not fundamentally flawed.

[TK] I'd rather keep it, but that'd require that the mechanic it's based on (GL) isn't a mere pretense (i.e. a once-per-instance prelude to normal combat). Even reworking GL, I'd rather TK play a part in that rather than being yet another skill aborted as if that were all that could be done... after having been intentionally gutted.

Shield Swipe for Paladins was hit or miss. I was flamed for stating this back in Stormblood that it was terrible skill. The natives hung me out to dry say "your mad about free dps?" "Pacifying a mob is bad?". And I 'm glad you mentioned that it was more useful as an interrupt, but a very poor interrupt. I usually held onto Shield swipe rather then using it for that reason. Using it as DPS seemed to undermine it's interrupt feature. I stated: "That shield swipes usefulness is rather low compared to shield bash or other role actions. I wouldn't be surprised if it get's axed in future expansions." Man did I get flamed...but I knew that as a skill it wasn't really needed given it's Cooldown and pacify utility not working on all bosses.

And it then it got cut in ShB. Nobody cried.

Same goes for TK, but this is a harder nut to crack. While I don't think it should be removed, but I wouldn't but it past SE to just gut an already gutted Job until the natives are happy with the design. DRK, WAR, MCH, AST, PLD, BRD are all good examples about SE just gutting jobs to make them "work". I have a strong feeling we are going to lose some "key" monk skills in 5.4 and there will be people upset, just like WAR mains were coming out of StormB.

If we want Monk to play like the other melee DPS we are going to have to sacrifice some skills to bring it up to equal footing with DRG, NIN, SAM playstyle. Monk is by far the most unique job to play next to SMN. But unlike SMN, is simply awful to play due to GL holding it back. This is what turns new players off to the job if it's a turd to play, and prevents new subs for SE. Each and every single job should "feel" smooth and engaging to play in their own way otherwise new players won't like the class they chose, and be less interested in the game. Hopefully they pick up another job and move on, but there are those that refuse to play BRD, DRK, WAR, SCH, due to the grass being greener effect. Now they are mostly bitter having the best of what made the job torn from them.

[Shurrikhan]

If we want Monk to play like the other melee DPS

That's just it, though. I don't want it to play like the other melee DPS, save in that two of the other melee DPS are just straight up more polished than it. I want MNK have to least the quality that SAM and DRG enjoy, but I don't want it to play like anything but Monk.

I already lost any enjoyable rotation from Ninja and only just got back SAM with the Higakure revisions. I don't want to lose another interesting DPS to the core-mechanics-sacrificing NIN/MCH-style "rehauls". (That's not to say that those rehauls were outright bad, only that they had zero need to sacrifice most of the things they ultimately gutted, save that Ammo itself existed as a mechanic, alongside skills that could "waste" ammo -- which those unable to optimize didn't like.)

Take Shield Swipe by way of example. Not crying over the lack of a half-assed implementation of a mechanic (having a flexible reserve skill that aided allied positioning or stack mechanics, could at least postpone spike damage, and yet wouldn't get in the way of other forms of CC) doesn't mean people wouldn't like that mechanic full-stop. It just means it never fully saw the light of day and no one missed what they'd only ever seen through narrow slits in a garbage heap.

DRK, WAR, MCH, AST, PLD, BRD are all good examples about SE just gutting jobs to make them "work".

And most of them have been horribly controversial precisely because they were gutted more than was needed to make them work. DRK did not need to become more nearly a "WAR-clone" to be a competitive choice. AST did not need to lose its time-space mechanics just to be balanceable. Arguably, it just needed to feel less pidgeon-holed into "pOp aLL thE tHinGs iN tHe CelOpp wIndoW", predominantly a playflow issue.

...On the other hand, PLD's only really lost Bulwark, which was far from pivotal. It hasn't been gutted. [I take this back. See edit.]

And Bard? That one's changes are harder to define. While I personally hugely regret the removal of actual song mechanics, and would have preferred core systems revisions instead, most would likely say little has actually been taken away from the core experience (how it rotates and Bard's place in optimal play). The devs just went back to trying--and rarely if ever quite succeeding--to balance physical ranged around their hypermobility and, with StB, ease of play, rather than reining that hypermobility back in. At this point I just regret that they won't consistently provide ways for Phys. Ranged to increase raid damage through mobility mechanics (e.g. letting them bait stuff for melee in E7S, as to spare melee those 2 GCDs of uptime) and therefore make PhyRanged swing between being either overpowered or underpowered.

Each and every single job should "feel" smooth and engaging to play in their own way

And that's going to be the crucial thing. The reason I get cynical is because we've been told, implicitly if not explicitly, that the two were mutually exclusive far more often than they actually have been.

Because of that, I'd rather see them try harder to maintain uniqueness, even if it takes longer to get the most intuitive, most effective design, than gut large portions and replace them only with something "smooth" but empty. That assumes, though, that the devs are capable of thinking about those core mechanics in terms of their gameplay loops and player decisions to be made accordingly, rather than just the surface level mechanic or code.


EDIT (due to daily post cap):

Paladin has changed greatly in the way that it used to gain oath with blocking, to just gaining oath with auto attacks.

Ahh, I see. You're totally right in that regard; I just saw it as a Role-wide change rather than a Paladin specific one. I should have guessed you may have meant that, though, given that you also included WAR and DRK. Completely my bad. And, yes, I would likewise have preferred to see both Oaths remain, just without so high a swap-cost. For instance, if Shield Oath generated a brief mitigation window or absorption value or Sword Oath generated a brief, compensatory period of increased Attack Speed, or if they were both turned into oGCDs with the Oath Gauge itself becoming more prevalent, I would have loved that. As I spent 95+% of my boss-time in Sword Oath and 85+% of AoE pulls in Shield, the mechanic had very little impact on me in StB, and thus little from its implementation was lost in ShB, but I would have loved to see it become more impactful, rather than less, through finally getting a proper implementation. And gods yes, the Shield Oath - Wings synergy was so fun.

All you have said below, save for a couple nit-picks, I'm right there with you on. Heck, I'd probably go further. I mean, I've been asking to be able to use my shield as more of a paired weapon, and for more reason to stance-dance (outside of mere eHP concerns) since ARR, so...

[Sqwall]

...On the other hand, PLD's only really lost Bulwark, which was far from pivotal. It hasn't been gutted.

ehhh this is a hard pass. Paladin has changed greatly in the way that it used to gain oath with blocking, to just gaining oath with auto attacks. And this deserves it's own thread, but what the heck.

Back in HW and StB you had a choice between shield and sword oath. Shield granted oath with blocking, and sword with auto attacks. I sorely MISS shield oath gaining oath from blocking.

Losing Bulwark was like Warrior losing Infuriate by comparison.

I could use bulwark or wings to just fill up my gauge when I needed more oath, and the more mobs around me the more oath I gained for MP regen for flash/clemancy/holy spirit out of sheltron spam. You could get 3-4 shell-trons in a row for fast MP regen. Oath was needed to gain MP back faster for your burst phase window with requisite and blocking facilitated that.

Now oath is merely relegated to 3 skills. Sheltron, Intervention, and Cover. Don't get me wrong I love the way shelltron works now, but I would really like to have something more useful to spend my oath on. As it gains at a static rate now...which is slow to boot. Shadowbringers gutted the way Block and Parry work as mitigation. Paladin is built around blocking, and now we have to rely on eHP. Remember when Paladin had 2 shield choices. Block chance and Block Strength? I do....and block chance was king for me as that offered more oath to burn. Now it's just even across the board for shields.

I like the way paladin plays now, but I kind of miss the meaningful ways you could gain oath in HW and StB. Doesn't mean paladin is trash by a long shot! (one of the best tanks imo) Hopefully we get a little more of that block integration back in the next expansion.

I would like to see something like a skill that once used charges oath when you block for 10 sec. or maybe when each party member's shield falls of or breaks you get 5 oath per.

[Shurrikhan]

Out of curiosity, a quick question for anyone/everyone:

What are some forms you wouldn't mind a reworked Greased Lightning taking? Moreover, what gameplay loops and general feel must it still accomplish?

(Same question for other resources like Forms, Stances, and Chakra, if you find those similarly pertinent.)