5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

[Goji1639]

A death actually is the BEST way to teach someone, if they only get a vuln up/damage down and damage there is a higher chance of them thinking "Well no biggie I can keep going" a death otherwise stops your gameplay and makes you really think about what happened

A death only stops gameplay if it wipes the group, and a DPS dying to coincounter probably won't result in a wipe. If you nearly die you can take note and adjust when you see the attack again. If you actually die you just alt tab out and play around online until the rest of the group finishes the fight.

[WaxSw]

A death only stops gameplay if it wipes the group, and a DPS dying to coincounter probably won't result in a wipe. If you nearly die you can take note and adjust when you see the attack again. If you actually die you just alt tab out and play around online until the rest of the group finishes the fight.

A death stops YOUR gameplay, you can't do anything outside of watching and wait for a res or the battle to be over, that is the perfect moment to look and learn what killed you instead of when you get only damage because there you have no time to think, you still have to play and therefore you don't have that time to think.

If you really alt tab of a game due to one death then I feel very sorry for the people that gets in a party with you, a willing player when killed will look for the reason behind it and look for ways to stop it instead of just rage quit.

[Goji1639]

A death stops YOUR gameplay, you can't do anything outside of watching and wait for a res or the battle to be over, that is the perfect moment to look and learn what killed you instead of when you get only damage because there you have no time to think, you still have to play and therefore you don't have that time to think.

If you really alt tab of a game due to one death then I feel very sorry for the people that gets in a party with you, a willing player when killed will look for the reason behind it and look for ways to stop it instead of just rage quit.

Most people aren't going to sit there analyzing a fight they're not participating in. It's a game; you play when it allows you to play. Even if you did spend that time attempting to analyze why you died, you won't get to put your analysis into practice. The group will kill the boss, move on, and who knows when you'll see another Cyclops boss with the same mechanics.

If an attack nearly kills me but I'm still on my feet then there's an opportunity and a reason to assess/adjust. If you just die immediately and don't even get to retry the fight there's virtually no point.

[WaxSw]

Most people aren't going to sit there analyzing a fight they're not participating in. It's a game; you play when it allows you to play. Even if you did spend that time attempting to analyze why you died, you won't get to put your analysis into practice. The group will kill the boss, move on, and who knows when you'll see another Cyclops boss with the same mechanics.

If an attack nearly kills me but I'm still on my feet then there's an opportunity and a reason to assess/adjust. If you just die immediately and don't even get to retry the fight there's virtually no point.

Again, if that's what you do I feel sorry for your party but most of the people when reciving negative feedback try to stop it from happening, if you keep living you can't think about what happened especially if you're a newbie while when dead there is higher chance for them to observe or even write the typical "What killed me" message in the party chat which will lead them to learning.

Some people really underestimate the value of failure and in part is something that leads the community to be the way it is skill wise, a death teaches more than 10 wins and 20 vuln ups.

[Goji1639]

Again, if that's what you do I feel sorry for your party but most of the people when reciving negative feedback try to stop it from happening, if you keep living you can't think about what happened especially if you're a newbie while when dead there is higher chance for them to observe or even write the typical "What killed me" message in the party chat which will lead them to learning.

Some people really underestimate the value of failure and in part is something that leads the community to be the way it is skill wise, a death teaches more than 10 wins and 20 vuln ups.

The most important part of learning is the ability to adjust; take away the ability to put new knowledge into practice and new knowledge is far less likely to be retained. If we're REALLY running with the idea that Coincounter was some kind of crucial learning experience for new players, then it's a very poorly realized one.

Reality is that it's just a crap mechanic. Maybe when FATES were more popular it made a bit more sense, but as it stands right now it's just a cheesy bit of inept combat design that SE would rather not be displaying to the world. Let it disappear.

[WaxSw]

The most important part of learning is the ability to adjust; take away the ability to put new knowledge into practice and new knowledge is far less likely to be retained. If we're REALLY running with the idea that Coincounter was some kind of crucial learning experience for new players, then it's a very poorly realized one.

Reality is that it's just a crap mechanic. Maybe when FATES were more popular it made a bit more sense, but as it stands right now it's just a cheesy bit of inept combat design that SE would rather not be displaying to the world. Let it disappear.

Its a very well designed boss, for starters the insta kill is only for dps and healers, the latter usually are farther from the boss so the run is hardly at risk. Tanks, which are usually more focused on mechanics and what the boss is doing are not punished hard since for them that is not that necessary and while doing that you once again don't risk the run meanwhile dps who are usually the players that tunnel vission the most and pay less attention are the ones that get more punished with a death, breaking their gameplay flow and basically telling them to pay attention to more things aside the numbers they do and their skills, and lastly for healers if they are at ranged distance the only problematic mechanics are the eye's ones which are non lethal serving as a callout to pay attention but like tank's case without risking the clear.

All the battle mechanics in that boss tell one thing "Pay attention to the boss, don't overrely on aoe marks" and all the mechanics do that without putting the party under a real risk, if the dps die they can get up with a res and practice as well as practice that principle of not relying too much on aoe marks in further trials. Coincounter is far from a boss with crap mechanics, is a good teacher that punishes you if you do bad but never hard enough to make it frustrating, the problem are the players that refuse to learn or adapt and tab into other things as soon as they die once even when the fight is not over, you have a good teacher, be a good student.

[Goji1639]

Its a very well designed boss, for starters the insta kill is only for dps and healers, the latter usually are farther from the boss so the run is hardly at risk. Tanks, which are usually more focused on mechanics and what the boss is doing are not punished hard since for them that is not that necessary and while doing that you once again don't risk the run meanwhile dps who are usually the players that tunnel vission the most and pay less attention are the ones that get more punished with a death, breaking their gameplay flow and basically telling them to pay attention to more things aside the numbers they do and their skills, and lastly for healers if they are at ranged distance the only problematic mechanics are the eye's ones which are non lethal serving as a callout to pay attention but like tank's case without risking the clear.

All the battle mechanics in that boss tell one thing "Pay attention to the boss, don't overrely on aoe marks" and all the mechanics do that without putting the party under a real risk, if the dps die they can get up with a res and practice as well as practice that principle of not relying too much on aoe marks in further trials. Coincounter is far from a boss with crap mechanics, is a good teacher that punishes you if you do bad but never hard enough to make it frustrating, the problem are the players that refuse to learn or adapt and tab into other things as soon as they die once even when the fight is not over, you have a good teacher, be a good student.

Those boss mechanics aren't well designed. They don't demand you pay attention to survive it; they demand you Youtube the fight before hand. That's the only way to approach a fight where the attacks don't have tells. Otherwise you just die and don't get to participate in the fight. If that's what you think a well designed boss is, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

I'm starting to think that explaining what good gameplay is to MMO players is kind of like trying to explain music to a deaf man. He has no concept of what it is, so there's really nothing you can say to make him understand.

Don't confuse shit difficulty with designs that demand you learn. There's nothing good about a dungeon causing issues for the party for the sake of a "challenge", it just means the dungeon is bad and needs a rework beyond nerfing a boss only the worst players who refuse to do better have a problem with.

Presenting obstacles and issues to overcome is the core of difficulty. Good gameplay involves obstacles that are tough but fair; attacks that are difficult to react/adjust to but entirely possible. A 1 hit kill with no telegraph is just BS you'd only really expect from combat designers who have no idea what they're doing.