Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[reyre]

Here.

6SS won't be dead, it'll still be useful for disengages since it lets you double dip your GCD. However it may end up getting changed in 5.4 anyway since the devs seemed to internally think of it as a way to refresh stacks rather than a downtime/disengage tool. Presumably Form Shift will still advance your form to the next one, but it will also refresh your stacks with every hit.

The skill that's really getting coffin'd here is Anatman. Fight Design rarely lets you build stacks because of how much they love making you either move during transitions or watch a minute long anime cutscene and then give you zero time before the boss is targetable after the fact. Perfect Balance's shortened recast is basically ripping the recovery aspect out from beneath Anatman (not that it was good for that either) and Form Shift already took the upkeep aspect, now it'll do it even better. All that's left for Anatman now is the opener that relies on counting server ticks.

I think that the better "band aid"in this situation would be just raw dam buff instead of a mechanical change of any kind. While it wont fix MNK issues it will at least give it some utility.

[SpeckledBurd]

I think that the better "band aid"in this situation would be just raw dam buff instead of a mechanical change of any kind. While it wont fix MNK issues it will at least give it some utility.

Form Shift refreshing GL independent of current Form makes Monk's downtime less of a spammy mess and the Perfect Balance buff improves Monk's ability to recover from forced downtime or from getting killed, both of which are problems with the job at the moment.

Per your own admission boosting Monk's damage doesn't fix anything.

[reyre]

Form Shift refreshing GL independent of current Form makes Monk's downtime less of a spammy mess and the Perfect Balance buff improves Monk's ability to recover from forced downtime or from getting killed, both of which are problems with the job at the moment.

Per your own admission boosting Monk's damage doesn't fix anything.

I never said it was a fix, i said as a better "band aid". Even more so since a more cohesive "fix" is coming down the line, so making any changes just to change them later doesnt seem that productive and while you may argue that any change is subject to futher changes, which is true, in this particular case it is not a very usefull "band aid" because is not trying to lessen some fundamental issue. As annoying as it may be Form shift or PB are not an issue, but skills like anatman, TK, SsS, Enlightment, Chakra/Meditation, Brotherhood, Leaden Fist and just RNG are issues. Since you cant fix them all now, you could just make it that BH affects everyone, that alone would go a long way (Ideally they will just remove the damm skill all together). But i digress.

Will it be a less "spammy" band aid? You will try and be in either coeurl or raptor, so less "spammy" by one button. Will it be that different? Even more so when you consider that you might need to use meditation so it might end up being equally as "spammy". It seems, at least to me, that MNK will be changing what button to spam, instead of FS it will be meditation, not that much of a difference to be honest, and even in dungeons it will be still very "spammy".

As for PB recast reduction, while i wont argue against the stacks-death recovery (which, again, to be fair is not how you should be using PB and the better you get at the game the less you will die) its very situational, what if you die after you used PB in your normal rotation?

In most cases having a short PB cast wont matter, unless of course is 20 seconds or so. So now any MNK has a very weird question to ask itself "should i save PB because i dont know if i will die or should i use it normally in the rotation?". As for the forced downtime, i dont think there are many fights that dont give you enough time to recover PB in its current state.

If we take E8s as an example the only big downtime is big enough that you have PB by the end of the Cut Scene, so having a short timer in that case will not help at all and you dont really lose stacks in the adds transition because for better or worse anatman works beautifully there. I havent done enough Copied factory to say this, but from my memory i never lost any GL stacks in the entire Raid. If there are any examples where this could be used for downtime i would love to hear them and even then i dont believe that it would be more than a handful at worst, making the reduced timer a VERY niche option to have which is the problem with current MNK, a bunch of VERY niche and redundant options and skills, that for the vast majority of the game you dont use at all.

Either way this whole argument is moot, they already said what they were changing. Hopefully it wont be JUST Form shift and Perfect balance but some other change as well but what is done is done, so honestly who cares? I can only wait and see.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Will it be a less "spammy" band aid? You will try and be in either coeurl or raptor, so less "spammy" by one button. Will it be that different? Even more so when you consider that you might need to use meditation so it might end up being equally as "spammy".

Depends on where in your rotation the disengage happens and how long the disengage lasts. Leadened Fist has a 30s duration, if it is up disengaging with SSS, Form Shifting to Opo-Opo and then reengaging with Bootshine->Twin Snakes->Demolish might be a viable option.

It seems, at least to me, that MNK will be changing what button to spam, instead of FS it will be meditation, not that much of a difference to be honest, and even in dungeons it will be still very "spammy".

There is a very significant difference between pushing 1 button every ~5s/3 times every 15s and 1 press every 15s. Also Meditation generates 5 chakra out of combat with a single press and during combat you will be pressing it between 1 and 5 times max during a disengage. 3 to 7 button presses during a 25s disengage is far less spammy than 7 to 12 presses.

[reyre]

Depends on where in your rotation the disengage happens and how long the disengage lasts. Leadened Fist has a 30s duration, if it is up disengaging with SSS, Form Shifting to Opo-Opo and then reengaging with Bootshine->Twin Snakes->Demolish might be a viable option.



There is a very significant difference between pushing 1 button every ~5s/3 times every 15s and 1 press every 15s. Also Meditation generates 5 chakra out of combat with a single press and during combat you will be pressing it between 1 and 5 times max during a disengage. 3 to 7 button presses during a 25s disengage is far less spammy than 7 to 12 presses.

Perhaps i am uderstanding things wrong here but it seems that in your first point you are saying that you dont really need the new FS in that specific situation, so wouldnt that make the change to FS in that situation pointless? By the way i dont think that is as viable as you say.

And for your second point, its is true that outside combat it will make it less "spammy" but during combat are there 25s disengages in current content? Because i dont remeber pressing all 12 buttons on any fight. I am trying to recall if any savage turn actually allows for that in combat and if memmory serves there isnt one. Eden 1-4 have enough downtime that spamming doesnt actually matter (leviatan dashes actually allow for the use of a TK+anatman combo) and as for 5-8 the only example i can think of is icelit song and i am not sure that you can press all 12 at best i think you can do is 6 maybe 7(if you use the normal strategy for icelit other wise its maybe 2 tops) , could be wrong here. As for trials Titania,inocence and memoria have anatman friendly Downtime and cinder i think it has a reopener, again could be 100% wrong with cinder here.

That leaves DNG and raids which to be fair are pretty "spammy" outside of combat. In combat i dont think there is downtime in any current DNG or Raid. (maybe the final fight of copied factory)

So i am supper curious to know witch fight has 25s of disengage during combat or anything close to that, also if you have that much downtime shouldnt you be using anatman? So is it really 12 presses? shouldnt it be maximun 5 presses then anatman, so 6? If so almost every fight enters the range you are describing, outside ofcourse of DNG and Raids.

[Sqwall]

Depends on where in your rotation the disengage happens and how long the disengage lasts. Leadened Fist has a 30s duration, if it is up disengaging with SSS, Form Shifting to Opo-Opo and then reengaging with Bootshine->Twin Snakes->Demolish might be a viable option.



There is a very significant difference between pushing 1 button every ~5s/3 times every 15s and 1 press every 15s. Also Meditation generates 5 chakra out of combat with a single press and during combat you will be pressing it between 1 and 5 times max during a disengage. 3 to 7 button presses during a 25s disengage is far less spammy than 7 to 12 presses.

I for one, when I play my monk.....HATE spamming form shift AND chakra during lulls in combat, when I can see ninja just mudra 3 times 1.5 sec GCD a 70 sec suiton timer. HUGE difference when i'm over here blasting form shift like a freaking moron because 'ma stacks. I'm so tired of hearing the whole disengagement debate over monk. The last 3 expansions worth of skills and abilities center around keep GL up and "disengagement"....then that is just POOR design. The job isn't FUN with spamming form shift and meditate, has ludicrous RNG, ludicrous positional's and movements, horrible capstone abilities, with some of the MOST NICHE disengagement dump abilities in the game that NOBODY has on any hotbar. All because we "wanted" more ways to keep our stacks up....yeah how's that working for all the monks out there? I didn't want that...I wanted evolution! If Tornado Kick had 5000 potency then it would ACTUALLY have some real benefits to using it do waste all my GL that apparently the WHOLE job is designed around keeping up GL stacks. But is doesn't.

Wasted potential if 5.4 is keeping this design philosophy....it's i'm about ready to permashelf Monk and switch to NIN or SAM for a DPS that makes LOGICAL sense in design. SAM and NIN are smooth and make sense...Monk is sitting in the corner eating it's boogers. 5.4 had better fix this job....although my expectations are VERY low since we have been burned SOOO much in the past.

[reyre]

I for one, when I play my monk.....HATE spamming form shift AND chakra during lulls in combat, when I can see ninja just mudra 3 times 1.5 sec GCD a 70 sec suiton timer. HUGE difference when i'm over here blasting form shift like a freaking moron because 'ma stacks. I'm so tired of hearing the whole disengagement debate over monk. The last 3 expansions worth of skills and abilities center around keep GL up and "disengagement"....then that is just POOR design. The job isn't FUN with spamming anture, has ludicrous RNG, ludicrous positional's and movements, horrible capstone abilities, with some of the MOST NICHE disengagement dump abilities in the game that NOBODY has on any hotbar. All because we "wanted" more ways to keep our stacks up....yeah how's that working for all the monks out there? Awful huh...? If Tornado Kick had 5000 potency then it would ACTUALLY have some real benefits to using it do waste all my GL that apparently the WHOLE job is designed around keeping up GL stacks.

Wasted potential if 5.4 is keeping this design philosophy....it's i'm about ready to permashelf Monk and switch to NIN or SAM for a DPS that makes LOGICAL sense in design. SAM and NIN are smooth and make sense...Monk is sitting in the corner eating it's boogers. 5.4 had better fix this job....although my expectations are VERY low since we have been burned SOOO much in the past.

By the looks of it i dont think MNK is for you if you have an issue with positionals. Perhaps a ranged or a caster would be more to your liking.

[Silverneck]

By the looks of it i dont think MNK is for you if you have an issue with positionals. Perhaps a ranged or a caster would be more to your liking.

So you read that entire post and only took away positionals?

The guy is right 2.0 to 5.3 Monk is same, thats his point.