Monk Needs a Complete Rework

[Xau]

[*]As for Stances, I would remove all straight dps gains from them. Instead, they would all have some QoL type buff attached to them. Earth could be nullifying direction requirements (maybe just vs opponent's for which you have enmity?); Fire could be greater range/radius on weaponskills; Air would be mostly the same (maybe recast reduction for Shoulder Tackle and/or Sprint addition?).
something plain-jane, like instantly recovering 8000 MP.[/List]

do you realise what giving a skill 100% uptime of no positional requirements makes it too op?, i mean, if we compare it whit the other 2 fists of... changes you sugested, it makes it way too op, since longer range and shortening recast on shoulder tackle(this one could be used just before using shoulder tackle and then changing back to 100% no positionals fist once the skill was used) aren't as great as ignoring positionals all the time(to the point of directly affect dps performance), to the point of why create such skill when positionals could be outright removed, fists of are better removed to the game since they bring ilusion of choice, and add nothing really relevant

[Shurrikhan]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of support skills would be better served if TP were, well, still a resource (or MP a resource on non-casters and made more diversely a one on classes that already use it). At that point you could have Mantra, Brotherhood, and a couple forms of burst direct damage consume it, so you aren't effectively "taxed" just for having access to Mantra/Brotherhood, but instead in proportion to their use.

...I'd still revise Brotherhood to just increase all skills' potency by 5%, though, instead of letting it lock us into physical comps.

[reyre]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of support skills would be better served if TP were, well, still a resource (or MP a resource on non-casters and made more diversely a one on classes that already use it). At that point you could have Mantra, Brotherhood, and a couple forms of burst direct damage consume it, so you aren't effectively "taxed" just for having access to Mantra/Brotherhood, but instead in proportion to their use.

...I'd still revise Brotherhood to just increase all skills' potency by 5%, though, instead of letting it lock us into physical comps.

I think that a lot of factors made MNK skills redundant. If TP still existed, as you said, it would be an interesting way to use other skills SsS comes to mind, even anatman.
I do recall that fights like Avatar were almost a race against TP (that and, of course the, abuse of fracture+ToD+Demo) so it actually makes sense that chakra (with TP in mind) works the way it does.

In fact This makes me wonder about SkS as a whole, at least in the melee side. Does any melee actually uses SkS melds or pieces? I know NIN and SAM have their own baked-in SkS increase in their rotations and DRG kind of cant have high SkS because of the jumps (and honestly it doesnt even need SkS). So they dont really use pieces with SkS and then there is MNK that avoids SkS like the plague...So why is this even there? I am guessing is to have options, but it feels kind of pointles. Maybe i am focusing a bit too much on raiding and there are other uses for SkS outside raids.

Its almost a DNC situation, as in the class that benefits the most from having dance partner is MNK (no, not DMG wise) because extra crit reduces RNG. Following that line of thought while most classes benefit from not having TP, MNK is the one that, kind of, suffers from the lack of it.

I, however, would just kill the extra effect of brotherhood, that 30% chakra generation RNG feels wrong.

[Beddict]

Does any melee actually uses SkS melds or pieces?

The 2.38 GCD DRG set does actually use SkS melds, but The Balance states that it's not for DRG mains and more for non-DRG mains who find the Job a bit too slow and want to go a bit faster. It's functional, but it isn't recommended.

[Shurrikhan]

I do recall that fights like Avatar were almost a race against TP (that and, of course the, abuse of fracture+ToD+Demo) so it actually makes sense that chakra (with TP in mind) works the way it does.

Man, I was a Fracture-ToD-abusing* SkS junkie. That fight got me so bad it made me wish Bards had a single-target song-focusing option. Like, just imagine if the benefits were allotted based on proximity. I'd force my Bard to be glued to me between every ranged mechanic.

* Before anyone gets up in arms, I'm not saying it was somehow an exploit. I was just the jerk who'd sooner ask my Bard for Army's Paeon 40 seconds early than have to clip Twin Snakes a couple seconds early every other rotational string.

In fact this makes me wonder about SkS as a whole, at least in the melee side. Does any melee actually uses SkS melds or pieces?

SAM actually puts it to decent enough use and it makes the job so much more fun that I have to say it's pretty useful. The excess can be perfectly absorbed through a Yuki-HG or Gekko/Kasha-HG, or when your comp has no significant raid buffs, you can actually just plow right through to get more Shoha stacks at the cost of some delay to TG. I run about 3.3k SkS with food, maybe a little more and since it hits breakpoints I'm still barely missing on Monk (getting Twin to last to all but Twin itself in Double-True was more than 600 SkS ago, iirc) I've actually been enjoying it a bit more than Monk itself. Well, for that reason and that TK, SsS, Anatman, etc. are more than kinda crap right now.

As for what it would mean for TP to still be a thing, or MP a thing for all classes, all I can say is it'd definitely require a minor change and would best be exploited with a few larger ones. For instance, I'd been pushing to make MP and TP ticks GCD based (at 20% less raw value, ofc) since... early ARR, I think, just because of how badly it punishes SkS builds. That said, I'd like to more or less remove the ability to outright TP/MP starve, such as by having their costs reduce the lower your %TP/MP is, but with a proportionate decrease in output. It'd then be punishing, but never removing potential gameplay. And voila, now you can steadily return Rockbreaker as even a single-target utility skill (batter him up, break his armor, or maintain GL from range) balanced around its TP cost. Etc., etc.

Following that line of thought, while most classes benefit from not having TP, MNK is the one that, kind of, suffers from the lack of it.

While I don't actually think it was that big a deal on Monk (contrary to what I just put above, I know), though only because so few opportunities were taken in the first place, I think you're noting something far too many have forgotten. A restriction or restrictive resource, even if literally a limitation, can be a very good thing for design because it actually opens up the potential for complexity and skill-diversity over the gameplay it limits. So long as the considerations it causes create a playflow that is more engaging and fun than without them (all relevant annoyances or lack thereof included), that's an improvement.

I even try to put myself in the shoes of others that think monk is fine the way it is, AND try to change my rotation or playstyle. But the annoying issues keep rearing their ugly heads.

As often the case, added SkS does help, but unlike with late SB, it can't completely solve anything. In late SB, you could build up enough speed that DK would only fall off before DK itself and Twin before Twin, costing you a "whopping" 29 to 38 potency for a far larger increase when performing a Double-True rotation, and safely get an extra TK per PB volley to boot, or use it with RoW alone while still precisely hitting Twin/DK timings. It felt great, just by pushing through the no-mans-land to the side of true SkS junkies.

But in ShB? SsS is still garbage, TK is still garbage, and you're actually even more obliged to use the Anatman opener than lower speeds (though, I guess every build is now, given that RoF and PB are now synced).

Outside of that (and only because i have high ping) make PB be 11 seconds, that simple change would almost certantly kill 90% of high ping complains.

Not to be overly nitpicky, but, GCDs aren't going to be affected except perhaps on the very first action that requires the oGCD's activation, until over 250 ms ping, simply because the client will ping the server for any GCDs 500 ms in advance. oGCDs, on the other hand, take roughly twice one's ping in uptime cost. (That's largely why RoF really did have a positive impact on lower SkS, high-ping Monks in regards to double-weaving. I sure as hell felt the difference before upgrading my internet.) Worse, extending the duration to 11 seconds means that high-SkS and (now) low-ping players like me will be able to get an extra action out of it, even while the high-ping players are unlikely to.

You'd be much better off having the duration have a "pre-stage" of sorts, or begin to tick down only after the completion of a relevant action, and offer it a bit of extra strength in the form of depositing the Monk into a "Chimera" or "All-" stance of sorts when it ends. That way one could at least recover if packet loss ate their Coeurl input and gave them their following non-Coeurl skill instead as their last PB action.

I would like postionals to feel meaningful, not just "LOL if its not leadenfist who cares if i miss it"

Final note: Even ignoring Leaden Fist, Monk positionals are still at least as significant as those of the other melee if you put them in the context of positional ppgcd. SAM has 73 positional epotency per combo, at most 73 positional epotency in a given GCD, 146 per rotational string, and therefore averages some 14.6 positional eppgcd. DRG has at has most 44 epositional potency in a given GCD, 176 per rotational string, and therefore 17.6 eppgcd. Ninja has at most 60 epotency in a given GCD, 60 in each combo, averaging a little under 20 ppgcd. Given Monk's 1.54x damage modifier under Twin + GL4, Monk's raw 20 potency per positional is already more than 30. Even exempting the massive value of Leaden Fists, Monk would already be holding 30 ppgcd, more than double that of Samurai, for instance.

But, admittedly, I would also prefer for the potency variance to be a bit larger, especially if we could have back some stance-less, position-less skills to weave into our rotation appropriately (a la Fracture and ToD as just over average ppgcd so that they can be flexibly timed but still afford some skill-gap with further optimization of their own).

[Tracewood]

Maybe have the combo ends of the MNK rotation to have positional points as opposed to every weaponskill. It worked pretty well when they revamped DRG and NIN. And those positional skills have higher potency and auto crit when done properly.

Rework Tornado Kick to be a "get back" attack skill like Redmage and Samurai, instead of eating your stacks.

As for Greased Lit. Rework it into something like the Beast Gauge, Where you can use Six Sided Star when the gauge gets to 50 and it's a very powerful attack.

Also give us a ranged attack for when we have to back off. A little chi blast, something.

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe have the combo ends of the MNK rotation to have positional points as opposed to every weaponskill. It worked pretty well when they revamped DRG and NIN. And those positional skills have higher potency and auto crit when done properly.

*Blink.*

*Blink, blink.*

NIN started off with no positionals outside of Trick Attack (back) and Sneak Attack (front). DRG's "revamp" was no more than moving the rear positional bonus from Impulse Drive to Chaos Thrust. It meant almost nothing compared to the general change that all weaponskills (not abilities, e.g. Trick Attack) would still activate combo progress and additional effects even if their positioning failed.

NIN and DRG have higher base potency only because they so much lower modifiers. Consider, Leaden Fist hits for over 800 effective potency.

Tornado Kick to be a "get back"

But it has you vault... away... from the target? I could see the opposite, but...

Rework [Greased Lightning] into something like the Beast Gauge, Where you can use Six Sided Star when the gauge gets to 50 and it's a very powerful attack.

Do we really need yet another Black Blood / Beast Gauge / Kenki / Ninki, though? If Monk remaining Monk is untenable, there are still plenty of other sensible and less copy-pasted options we could pursue.

Also give us a ranged attack for when we have to back off.

We have what amounts to and was given as ranged skill, though -- Meditation. It's just been increasingly ignored over each expansion since its implementation, much like Piercing Talon and Throwing Daggers since ARR. Wouldn't it be better to fix the melee-downtime skill we have than throw yet junk onto MNK's garbage-laden plate?

[HeulGDarian]

Man i dont play monk , but im actually interested on how theyll turn him. I dont really get the problems it felt fine to me .So ill just hope that you guys get your problems fixed .

[xxvaynxx]

All these passionate monk's, really hope they do the job justice with the revamp.
I want my first job I ever played and mained to be fun again.
Mnk has been f**ked over with new abilities way too much.
And almost nothing new to play with because its always situational or some boring buff or GL management.

[Sqwall]

All these passionate monk's, really hope they do the job justice with the revamp.
And almost nothing new to play with because its always situational or some boring buff or GL management.

I personally hope they do away with the GL ramp up into gaining 3/4 GL. With the changes made to Form Shift and Perfect Balance I hope to see something like a hybrid of warrior/nin gameplay.

Currently:Form Shift just changes your form and resets the timer....that's it. We may see something akin to huton/Storm Eye instead. Finishing a combo starts/resets it(like armor crush), using form shift resets it.

Currently: Perfect Balance is essentially Inner Release on 90 sec CD for a burst phase that only works with form combos. I do find myself using this almost every trash pack to spam Rockbreaker + ROF + Brotherhood. Very powerful and constantly edge close to pulling hate off the tank if they aren't AOEing enough. Outside of my initial opener for GL gains, this is my new Inner Release.

Future: Personally, GL in it's current form is gone and change to something like Beast Gauge...(I hope) The GL per stack buff turned into a straight static buff that we have at all times without the punishing side affects of losing it. Essentially 1-80 we get a steady increase to speed/potency passively. The new "GL gauge" builds up by finishing combos with a max 100 points. Perfect Balance and TK would use 50 each. This would offer so much choice(personally) and open the job up to so many strategies. Do I wanna unload Perfect Balance for crazy AOE? or drop 2 tornado kicks?

Also this prevents spamming Perfect Balance as you need to FINISH a combo to gain GL resources. I have thought this through a lot.

Future: Chackra is "fine" since I use it quite a lot, but the RNG blows. Currently use SSS > Forbidden > Elixir Field/Shoulder tackle. I think SSS should be turned into a chackra gain skill with a small cooldown timer and made into a oGCD, and remove the slow down effect. This would be something I can weave to help supplement my chackra gains. If the RNG is so bad just pop SSS. (Kind of like Sleeve Draw)

Future: That leaves TK and this is where I feel something akin to beast gauge or nenki would shine. Building up to a double tornado kick + riddle of fire! Sounds...awesome honestly! How we gain these would be dependent on doing our combos effectively and using perfect balance won't work as you need to finish your combos.

Future: And lastly...stances. Fists of Wind +5% Crit Buff, Fists of Fire +5% damage Buff, Fist of Earth +5% reduced damage. Stances has always been a sore subject all the way back to ARR...they just always took a back seat until Stormblood offered the whole riddle mess, and then was undone.

No matter how you look at it...Monk really does need a complete rework.