Next Jobs

[Klaleara]

I just want Necromancer. I know it probably won't happen, and even if it does, not in a way I'd approve. But I still want it.

[Auryan]

With Yoshi P stating how Bst would make a good limited job, I wouldn't really put all my eggs in that basket just yet, especially with how we just got a physical ranged this expansion.

A healer and a caster will be coming.

And to back up your statement, BST and PUP were both briefly mentioned during the lvl 60 BLU update. They were brought up as being a major part of the Carnival operations; tamers breeding and raising beasts and engineers constructing mammets for you and Martin to fight.

That is one of, if not, the only time BST was eluded to. I guess Hildibrand literally using Charm on that eagle during Stormblood sorta counts.

[MirronTulaxia]

Supposedly Gabranth is mentioned as a Beastmaster of some sort too. My guess is an NPC brings it up, as i didn’t notice it just going through the Resistance story.

That aside BST doesn’t work as a normal job really. They could give it set monsters, make it more like Ranger or the like I suppose with actual animals, but otherwise I don’t see it working out. And if they did it would need a new weapon if it’s RDPS.

[BasicBlake]

Supposedly Gabranth is mentioned as a Beastmaster of some sort too. My guess is an NPC brings it up, as i didn’t notice it just going through the Resistance story.

That aside BST doesn’t work as a normal job really. They could give it set monsters, make it more like Ranger or the like I suppose with actual animals, but otherwise I don’t see it working out. And if they did it would need a new weapon if it’s RDPS.

It’s not supposedly, he is called it. Talk to the npc next to Balsaljen in the relic quest zone and he says “Gabranth is a powerful Beastmaster”. You have to select the “Tell me about Gabranth” option.

[AceofRains]

Actually, Blue Mage is working great, from a developer standpoint. Just because you don’t enjoy how it works in this game doesn’t mean it hasn’t done well. Pretty much every person you speak to has leveled BLU to 60, or has at least unlocked it. I actually don’t think you can even find an interview where the FFXIV team has said anything but praise for how the class turned out.

Your dislike is not a universal experience. And while I personally don’t get that hype about the blue mage content, it was by no means a failure. They made side content and almost every player played it, that’s a win for them.

Didn’t say I’m not enjoying it. Clearly my avatar is wearing the BLU mask right now, so I’m definitely playing with it. I’m saying there’s a lot wrong and it’s reasonable to make it a normal job with the others. You assume I dislike it, but I love the job iteration in FFXIV. It’s just impractical to not have it naturally progress the with other jobs, even if it’s ability learning is alternative. I spoke with a friend the other week about it and he refuses to touch the job because limited job is foolish design. I encouraged him to try it because it’s quite fun, but it doesn’t change the fact that it seriously does not deserve to be left out of the others.

[MirronTulaxia]

It’s not supposedly, he is called it. Talk to the npc next to Balsaljen in the relic quest zone and he says “Gabranth is a powerful Beastmaster”. You have to select the “Tell me about Gabranth” option.

I said “supposedly” not because I doubted it but couldn’t double check and wasn’t given any information to figure it out beyond it being in the Resistance line. That’s all. Even if I think something is likely or accurate I won’t state it as such unless I can check for myself.

[Archwizard]

Mirron, I'm just going to ask you this once.
Please read a post to its conclusion before replying. Don't hit "reply" and then start reading and writing bullets as you go. Don't do the "stream of consciousness" when you're going to contradict yourself later or realize you're not arguing for what you thought you were. It's hard to reply to you, because the "spur of the moment" reply style you have makes you purely reactive and contrarian, and makes it hard to tell what you mean to argue for.
The way you write is no different from if you wanted to interrupt someone to go on a pedantic tangent, except that their post is already written and their point has already been made.
There is a holistic argument being made for consideration, but you only examine each passage individually. It makes you look the fool.

I didn't say anyone said Light/Dark were tied to Geomancer, but they are still distinctly lacking in terms of offensive representation. If people are going to put forward that Water needs representation then so too do Light and Dark.

Again, we already have several classes who specialize in Light and Dark, respectively. PLD and WHM for Light, DRK for Dark, and assorted other jobs who touch on it.
Just because they're not Caster DPS jobs doesn't make the representation any less present in the game as a whole. Meanwhile, thanks to trimming, there is only one Water-based attack available across all jobs: NIN's Suiton.

And if two spells is enough to qualify an element as represented then Red Mage already has that with Wind. So you're really only defeating your own argument about these elements and their representation if two is enough to qualify.

What "argument" is that defeating? I literally said that Wind/Earth have representation through RDM and SMN, you're literally making the same point I did. I'm not in some fictitious boat saying they're underrepresented elements just because BLM isn't using them.
Water is underrepresented, sure, and if the devs see fit to build the next caster around it and those other elements then I have no objection, as I'm sure most of us can agree.
I don't think the devs take "What elements haven't we used" in itself as a major consideration when choosing jobs to design (since mechanically, all magic is Magic Damage regardless of element, unless the job itself has some distinction like AF/UI), but I do think that GEO is an excellent job choice to add to the Caster roster (partly due to lack of other realistic options; partly due to its unique aesthetics, rich lore, and support potential), and it just happens to use several of the elements BLM avoids, including potential for offensive Water magic.

You definitely misunderstand what I proposed if that's what you read. It wasn't "Geomancer should have all of these" but "all of these elements are 'missing', and Geomancer isn't fixing all of them".

Which is a non-sequitur argument to make in the first place; once again, you're being too broad with your counterpoint. Your logic could be applied exactly the same way to any future job that doesn't cover at least those 5 elements, substituting out the word "Geomancer" for whatever name, and could be used in an attempt to block literally any future addition to the caster lineup.

Look, I get that you're trying to say "they're not going to add a job just because it has <X> missing magic type."
But that's not what anyone is proposing.
OP is just asking to see Water represented by a future addition to the roster; a harmless request made from hype, not some arbitrary barrier to entry for other jobs or a request to stop production on anything that doesn't have it.
GEO could, just by sheer coincidence, fit exactly the criteria OP is asking for... but that's not the sole basis to include GEO or the only reason GEO's requested.

I'm not really counting something as representation of elemental aspects unless it's on the scale of Black Mage Fire/Ice. Even their Thunder is a bit weak for my tastes.

Part of the problem with that line of thinking about the "depth" of representation, is that any caster job would essentially have to be BLM with their spells reskinned to match new elements in order to qualify.
Bearing in mind that the way BLM is built up, the level of "depth" Fire and Ice magic get comes from being the majority of the job's arsenal; the more elements you add to a job with a fixed number of Spell/Ability/Trait slots for advancement, the more diluted each element will inevitably become within their arsenal, as we see with RDM and NIN. BLM and SMN each have distinct "purposes" for each element at their disposal, yet you cherrypick BLM because it has 4-6 spells of a given element (even when more of them fall into disuse over time or are overwritten by new additions) where SMN has each element consolidated in a pet.

The broad point here is that we've seen Geomancer, and it only used Water aether for healing, it's entirely probable that's what it'll do as a proper job.

Again, Kyokuho did. He's also not the only GEO in the game, with the Sai Taisui of Swallow's Compass and Heaven on High using water exclusively for damage.

They still chose those three spells for a reason presumably,

They chose them because an NPC you're only going to have support you for one questline to supplement your crap damage output (and one whose actions you probably won't be watching much anyway) isn't going to need a particular depth to their arsenal and is just going to use a basic script to attack anyway, and because Kyokuho was quickly thrown together from scraps they recycled from CNJ (including the wand casting animations they already had in place, which worked with his unique 'rattle'). Anything more would have been unnecessary effort, particularly when coding the NPC's attack behavior.
This is the same way that Alisaie and Thancred used GLA attacks before RDM and ROG were implemented, or how the Trusts for Ryne, Alphinaud and Y'shtola are billed as unique jobs but are essentially ROG, SCH and BLM with some extra spells. Hell, it's the same reason we see Onmyoji NPCs casting THM spells even when Yoshi-P has gone on record to say that was a job previously in development. It's just the devs recycling data and making an easy script for NPC actions, and doesn't act as a restriction on or indicator of how a full job addition would play. You cannot base a potential job off how an NPC ally is coded; hell, you can't even base it purely off how an enemy is coded, which requires a great deal of expansion even when they have unique skills.

Could they give GEO a water-based heal? Sure, sorta like how RDM gets Vercure, SMN has a healing aura with Phoenix up, or SMN and BLM get personal barriers. I'm still of the mindset that BLM should get Drain back for some personal survivability while questing, and maybe emphasize Titan-Egi's barrier ability for SMN for the same reason.
Does that have to be the only Water spell GEO has, prevent GEO from learning Water magic to attack, or denote GEO to become a Healer job? God no.

[MirronTulaxia]

1. What I am arguing for, again, is the same thing I have said every single solitary time this subject has been brought up. If you can't remember then I'm not sure what to say. And if you want to question me on it I'll drag through threads and find my replies on the matter for proof. They exist, you should be able to remember something simple and straight forward when I've already gone after you for forgetting what I said previously. To reiterate though, and remember this time since you seem to have difficulty with that, I am simply saying Geomancers could be a healer. Nothing about what they have says they will be an offensive mage. So saying we need a Water mage is pretty pointless as a distinction again.

2. If the argument is that they don't need to be Caster DPS then it's really irrelevant to what I'm arguing. Because I would argue you can have a Healer Geomancer with Water offense just fine.

3. I'm not really the one arguing that we need a Water rep, so it's kind of a moot argument to pin on me.

4. If we're lowering the threshold of what counts then, again, I reiterate that it doesn't need to be a Caster to have Water representation. Which is entirely my point.

5. The Sai Taisui seem to be some sort of non-human entity, and I'm disinclined to really place much stock in what that means.

6. I mean, if they really wanted to just give Kyokuho a Conjurer moveset they could have done that. He does have a different healing spell. Which, to me, points at intent. There isn't really a good reason to change it from just Conjurer if they aren't going to use it as a hint at things.

[BasicBlake]

I’m on mobile so I’m not even going to try and quote and delete all of that to get to the part I actually want to talk about.

The Sai Taisui are shikigami created by Geomancers. They are the same as the Koja and shikigami you meet throughout Stormblood. Except, they can only be created with mud collected where the leylines of water, earth and wind Aether intersects. It’s why they really show up at Swallow’s Compass (because they dungeon was created at the specific spot in Yanxia for this reason.)

[Archwizard]

I am simply saying Geomancers could be a healer.

Cool! Great! That's your full thought! And others are saying Geomancers could be DPS! Necromancer could be a healer too! Chemist could be a ranged DPS job! DRK or GNB could have been melee and NIN or SAM could have been tanks!
Okay! Appreciated! You've made your point, we all clap and move on.
If the only thing you wanted to say is "It could be a healer", you wouldn't feel the need to argue with the people who expect or want to see it implemented as a DPS.

The big argument against it being a healer -- and it's a pretty strong one -- is that it would be pretty close to CNJ aesthetically, and is a headscratcher on what it could bring to the table that WHM doesn't already have or has already lost for being too powerful (hi Stoneskin). If you had a point about it potentially being a healer, you would argue for what it could bring to the table, instead of simply trying to contradict the people who point out its greater potential as a DPS.

We have a lot of "could be" arguments available for many job candidates! It's also pointless to throw that out there and argue like it's the only solution, especially when you proceed to act like you legitimately don't care which of the two it is, how it's implemented, or even if it is implemented at all.

Can it be implemented as a healer? Fine, sure, yes. A lot of people would be disappointed, but okay, it can be. Probably won't be, and we'd much rather see it fleshed out and being unique.

So saying we need a Water mage is pretty pointless as a distinction again.

Nobody said we "need" a Water mage. Nobody is saying it's vital that Water be represented. Nobody is saying "stop production on any caster that doesn't have Water magic" or "force feed some Water magic to a job that doesn't normally use it."
OP just asked to see some Water rep in the future, if possible. That's it.

I'm not really the one arguing that we need a Water rep, so it's kind of a moot argument to pin on me.

I wasn't pinning it on you. I'm saying that you use nonsense and petty arguments against it as if Water mages stole your lunch money.

The Sai Taisui seem to be some sort of non-human entity, and I'm disinclined to really place much stock in what that means.

The Swallow's Compass is a giant shrine built by Doman Geomancers, occupied by beings who hold exactly the spirit-subjugating powers that the ancient Geomancers are said to have used. Regardless of what the Sai Taisui are, it is an architectural representation of how Geomancy is more than just what we've seen with Kyokuho.
And as BasicBlake said above, they were created by and infused with the power of Geomancy anyway. It's not the first time we've seen magical constructs use the same powers as their creators; you fight a Mhachi golem that tosses out black magic in the BLM storyline, and a Kuribu statue with white magic in one of the Amdapor dungeons.

I mean, if they really wanted to just give Kyokuho a Conjurer moveset they could have done that. He does have a different healing spell.

They did give him a Conjurer moveset. All they did was rename the spells.

To say they did more than that is at best flavor, and at worst reading into it.

There isn't really a good reason to change it from just Conjurer if they aren't going to use it as a hint at things.

Again... Alisaie wielded an aether sword and fought like a Gladiator. There are Onmyoji NPCs who fight like Thaumaturges.

Look, if they wanted to use it as a "hint" like you say, that would mean they would have had to design the job already so they could use some of its spells as samples. But then they may as well have just implemented the job.
It's more likely that what we see with Kyokuho is what we would call a "placeholder".
Considering the exact spells he uses have no impact on the story so it wouldn't be a retcon to change them, the only thing keeping the devs from going back and giving him a more faithful moveset should they introduce a full GEO job is laziness. We already have enough NPCs running around with dummied-out versions of spells specifically because they don't care what NPCs have in relation to what players keep. Let's be honest, even if they do introduce GEO as a job, they will probably say we practice a different form than Kyokuho has, much like how Sharlayan Astromancy is different from Ishgard's, or our soul crystals give us access to ancient spells lost to time -- expressly for the purpose of not having to go back and recode him.

Geomancy was written as part of the religion, folklore, history and architecture of Othard and Hingashi, so we would inevitably be introduced to some Geomancer NPCs at some point -- it would have been more suspicious not to have. They call Kyokuho a Geomancer because he is, within the lore, a Geomancer and not a Conjurer; they coded him as a Conjurer because, in terms of gameplay, they didn't have a Geomancer set already and Conjurer's moves were the closest to what they had in mind. It's not that complicated.