6.1 kaiten loss can be in a way a good thing but here why...

[silentwindfr]

i know my thought will not be the most popular, but i want to be the devil advocate here for one minutes...
because i did read a loooooot of thing about how kaiten is the core of the sam... when it's not... samurai core mechanic are iaijutsu and sen management... kenki is something to weave between this mechanic...
this is the first point i want to adress... what is the core mechanic of samurai. our goal is to generate sen for use iaijutsu it's everything we do... all the rest is here for enhance the moment we will use the iaijutsu. and it will be good to remember this... Fugetsu and Fuka have this goal is mind and is the same for kaiten. they are a means for achieve our goal... deal a massive amount of damage with our iaijutsu.
that said, i want to ask something more simple... do kaiten really bring anything to the table? no my question is bad.... do have kaiten or not will change anything to our cycle? the answer is no... why? kaiten is an ogc that have as sole goal to use kenki for enhance the next skill...
for make simple remove kaiten will not change our cycle. instead to save the kenki for kaiten every minutes... we will use it for something else.

and that the point of my view as devil advocate, one of the most important point. we know a new expansion will come means more skill added... right now at this point, what can be added to the samurai to bring something new without make us have more button added to the bar? right now at this time before kaiten removal i dunno what they can remove without handicap our tools... (i will come back about guren/seinen and shoha 1/2 situation after) the removal of kaiten open room for add new tools to be used with the kenki. for make kenki more active than save up for this minutes windows before use shinten when we can.
kaiten did become a shackle to the samurai kenki usage. instead to have something that allows us to gain more skill to use between our gcd... we did get hold back by it.

that my point at this time remove kaiten can look strange, but if we look at the bigger picture it can open room for more change interesting to the samurai. and it's a big if... i'm not part of the dev team and dunno if it's them goal or not. but if it's them goal i'm for it... because honestly kaiten outside look cool... don't bring anything to the samurai that can't be added by change of potency.

ps: i know my viewpoint will probably encounter a lot of hate... but i'm pratical and pragmatic... i know that nothing can stay like it is forever. even if i did enjoy the change of the samurai with endwalker let's be honest... it was safe add to the jobs, it didn't really bring any new tool outside more diversity to what we can, it's more QoL... yes we did get ogi but ogi is a sort of mini lb iaijutsu. same for the 2 midare, huge QoL like this when we can't use because of mechanic we don't loose time in our cycle.

shoha and seinen/guren... my viewpoint is they are tool for different situation. can they be fuse probably... do i want it? no way in hell! and i feel it's strange to ask to remove tool with different goal instead to a button that can be remplaced by a potency change.

[VentVanitas]

"Kaiten removal is good because SE might bring in something better 2 years later" is an absolutely poor argument, and is no excuse to leave the job worse for ~2 years. That's what MNKs told themselves with the 5.4 rework, and somehow they ended up getting even less in EW.

[silentwindfr]

"Kaiten removal is good because SE might bring in something better 2 years later" is an absolutely poor argument, and is no excuse to leave the job worse for ~2 years. That's what MNKs told themselves with the 5.4 rework, and somehow they ended up getting even less in EW.

care to explain why the jobs will be worse without kaiten? because it's easy to come and say it's a poor argument without even bring anything to the table.
i did states Kaiten right now can be take out without any change to our cycle... we will loose one ogc but allows us to use more another one that was ending less used because of this one. plus like said kaiten can be counter by an increase of potency... soo far most of the time people did bring an argument for say that kaiten was important and such, but honestly they was poor argument that was more about... don't take out a skill, we don't want to loose ONE button that serve no purpose. even fugetsu and fuga are part of something else... they are part of the combo + sen system.. but kaiten have as only purpose to increase the next skill used... but people only use it one ogi and the iaijutsu... nothing else... they why not increase the potency of the this two mechanic and scrap this button? that is used only every minutes more or so.

so far i await a true good argument pointing that kaiten is usefull... and important to the job... because soo far the truth is the removal of kaiten will have no impact on us. only remove one button... that can be replace by a potency change.

[CKNovel]

"Kaiten removal is good because SE might bring in something better 2 years later" is an absolutely poor argument, and is no excuse to leave the job worse for ~2 years. That's what MNKs told themselves with the 5.4 rework, and somehow they ended up getting even less in EW.

DRK losing Dark Passenger in Shadowbringer to then getting it back in Endwalker.
And it's the same thing except on 2 charges so you'll hold them for the 2 minutes burst.

[VentVanitas]

Frankly I don't want to explain, because you could simply read the dozen or so threads already doing just that

If Kaiten has no impact then Shinten doesn't either. Then Senei doesn't, nor Shoha, or Third Eye, Ikishoten, etc. If you can't see the problem with this reductionist mentality then I don't know what else to say to you. It leads to a slippery slope of everything else eventually being useless because you can always just roll the potency of a skill somewhere else.

[Grimoire-M]

Frankly I don't want to explain, because you could simply read the dozen or so threads already doing just that

If Kaiten has no impact then Shinten doesn't either. Then Senei doesn't, nor Shoha, or Third Eye, Ikishoten, etc. If you can't see the problem with this reductionist mentality then I don't know what else to say to you. It leads to a slippery slope of everything else eventually being useless because you can always just roll the potency of a skill somewhere else.

aka: Healer DPS in a nutshell.

[silentwindfr]

Frankly I don't want to explain, because you could simply read the dozen or so threads already doing just that

If Kaiten has no impact then Shinten doesn't either. Then Senei doesn't, nor Shoha, or Third Eye, Ikishoten, etc. If you can't see the problem with this reductionist mentality then I don't know what else to say to you. It leads to a slippery slope of everything else eventually being useless because you can always just roll the potency of a skill somewhere else.

*sighs* thanks for proving my point.
shinten: ogs skill you can weave between skill for add damage deal directly.
shoha: every 3 iaijutsu give another skill for .... add damage deal directly enforcing more the fact that iaijutsu is a core mechanic.
third eye: one of the rare survival tool of our kit... reduction of 10% of damage taken. i regret the loose of other skill tie to it more than you can think.
ikishoten: give us kenki used for shinten (from the next patch) and allows us to use ogi skill.

kaiten: increase the potency of 50% for the next skill. not for a period of time like some other buff... no just the next skill used. the cost did lead to be used mostly for iaijutsu technic... in the end if you simply increase the iaijutsu potency you will get the same effect.

and you seems to miss my point, i know they will get ride of skill, we can't stop this fact, it did begin with shadowbringer and i'm sure the next expansion will continue. but at choose between a skill that can be replace by a potency increase and a skill that add tool to our kit i prefer they get ride of kaiten instead to get ride of our self healing from third eyes by example.

i'm against the oversimplification of a class... but we can't stop them, it already did start and honestly like i have said i play the devil's advocate here... i simply choose the lesser hell instead to loose some skill that give diversity to our toolkit.

ps: plus this post has vocation to make post different instead to tell them:"don't remove kaiten" i want to tell them:"ok you did remove kaiten, but i hope it's for add something later"
it's different action. instead to throw a tantrums i'm simply acting more mature and pointing that it's cool to remove skill but i hope they will work on making kenki something more engaging!

pss: naturally i will be extremely carefull and wait to see the increase of potency... because no one have come and said: "hey they add auto crit and remove kaiten, i hope we will not get nerfed behind in the increase of potency"

No. No one asked.

did we ask for the change of third eyes mechanic, never... we never ask for change sadly we simply point out bad like hagakure that was put back, not because player did complain about the fact to remove it... but because player did point out it was not possible to get ride of sen when a mechanic stop our cycle leading to trouble with cycle and making the whole thing ankward. sadly it will not happend with kaiten...

[YukiB]

because soo far the truth is the removal of kaiten will have no impact on us. only remove one button... that can be replace by a potency change.

All of our other oGCDs can be replaced with a potency change too. It sure would be boring, though. Every oGCD removed for "action bloat" leads to more boring gameplay, just like it's going to be without Kaiten.

shinten: ogs skill you can weave between skill for add damage deal directly.

Shinten's direct damage can be replaced with a potency increase on our GCDs equal to Shinten's potency divided by its cost in kenki, multiplied by how much kenki the GCD generates. So 54, 108, and 162 depending on the GCD. Round up or down for pretty numbers.

shoha: every 3 iaijutsu give another skill for .... add damage deal directly enforcing more the fact that iaijutsu is a core mechanic.

Shoha's direct damage can be replaced with a potency increase on our iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri equal to Shoha's potency divided by 3 (adjusted appropriately for the guaranteed crit).

ikishoten: give us kenki used for shinten (from the next patch) and allows us to use ogi skill.

Ogi Namikiri can be turned into a 120s cooldown. Then Ikishoten can be removed, and the potency from the extra Shinten and Senei added into Ogi Namikiri's potency.

So why are you fine with removing Kaiten, but think all the rest of this stuff is vital? I'm especially confused as to why you think Shinten is more valuable than Kaiten, since it doesn't interact in any way with iaijutsu.

[Doragan]

i want to be the devil advocate here for one minutes...

No. No one asked.

[Luin]

and that the point of my view as devil advocate, one of the most important point. we know a new expansion will come means more skill added...

Jobs are consistently 'streamlined' with each expansion.

Just like Endwalker and Shadowbringers, new actions with new animations and names will replace old actions, but functionality remains similar. Some jobs will be reworked and become even more streamlined, like Summoner or Monk.