We really need to talk about Living Dead

[Tranquilmelody7]

My point is that you lack an understanding of the difference between longer term, more passive, healing versus the more active burst healing that WAR has. My point is also that no matter what the situation is, if a GNB uses Superbolide, they will require assistance from a healer to bring their health back up into safe & stable territory (hint: sitting on 40k HP out of almost 200k is not what counts as 'safe' or 'stable'). You can go on about GNB's long-term healing with Brutal Shell's passive heal and multiple Aurora uses all you want, but that is a completely moot point to go on in the first place seeing as the subject at hand is "tank being able to bring their own HP to a safe territory after an invuln/TB solo or not"; and it's a simple matter of fact that GNB cannot do that solo. The only sources of healing GNB has is Aurora, which is a HoT that only heals around 30-35k HP, and Brutal Shell's passive heal which heals for, in a generous estimate, 8k. Neither of these will bring your health high enough to where a healer doesn't need to do anything to you, even if we expand the time frame to allow for Aurora's full 20 seconds which, spoiler, is an extremely generous allotment. Once again; the only reason that WAR has the capability to stabilize their own HP after invulning is due to their healing functioning in a short burst of health gain. If you want to argue this point more then I can't stop you, but the very kits of the two tanks proves you to be incorrect and I don't see why you're continually trying to insist that you have a leg to stand on other than to save face.

I'm not even arguing that you're wrong.
Your mathematics are sound.

GUN's and DRK's invulnerabilities will pretty much always require assistance of outgoing heals, while WAR's may require healing occasionally.

I'm questioning the relevancy of your statements to begin with.
The mandatory healing resources living dead requires will always be greater than those for any other tank invulnerability, due to it's very design.

In addition, you have to cooperate heavily with healers to actually make it's duration not suck, while naturally making the DRK prone to potential death in the process - two concerns no other tank must worry about at all.

Not to mention in extra light(Less than 4)group and solo play, Living Dead has zero uses for practical application.

From most of the other posts I skimmed here, it seems like a bunch of healers complaining about having to put in effort; which is ironic because it seems like the biggest complaint coming out of the healer camp these days is its too boring and not challenging.

Quite possibly the most embarrassing strawman in this thread.

The majority of healers are complaining because of a lack of options they can utilize during healing downtime during encounters.

I'd imagine most wouldn't want to heal more if the only reason to do so was to cater to the immense drawbacks of outrageously poorly designed skills.

[Lucy_Pyre]

The mandatory healing resources living dead requires will always be greater than those for any other tank invulnerability, due to it's very design.
Not to mention in extra light(Less than 4)group and solo play, Living Dead has zero uses for practical application.

Superbolide isn't much better in solo content than Living Dead, since even if you pop Aurora right as you activate it you aren't getting *that* much health back before the immunity times out. Holmgang in the same situation is +/- depending on if the WAR has ToB & Equil up, since we can't use Nascent without one other party member (SE plz). As for using healing resources, sure, you're technically correct. Even if that is the case, though, LD doesn't take *that* much to heal up with two healers in 8 man content. An AST and SCH can take the DRK from 1 HP to full in two GCDs, together, if either of them get crits on Essential Dignity/Lustrate. If no crits it'll take 3 GCDs most likely, but crit rates are pretty comfy these days. Honestly the only healer I can see having any issues dealing with LD in light party content is SCH. WHM obviously has Bene, and AST can snapshot ED at 1HP with other heals in unison for a huge burst heal, plus two ED charges makes it even less of an issue. While yes, SCH can still manage it with Aetherflow up (or burning Dissipation to get it if necessary) it'll likely still require burning 2 Lustrate's, Excog, and a crit Adlo with Emergency Tactics at the least; which is a pretty significant resource drain, I admit.

[ArianeEwah]

Maybe Lucy_Pyre is being hyperbolic, but regardless of if their statement is literally true or essentially true it still serves their point.
Let's not get stuck on semantics please.

It's not even "semantics". They insist on their statement being absolute. Yet for that to be true, they would have to prove that every situation would require a healers assistance, while the other party just has to state one single situation for them to be proven wrong.
In this case it's not just one, but several examples have been shown!
Yet they use their own statement - or should I say "opinion" - which they misleadingly use it as a fact...
...to underline their claim that LD is fine or not the worst among all invuls.

This is like your parents telling you to always wear a rain coat because it could rain anytime. Essentially they told you to wear it whenever it is about to rain. But you don't always wear it, right? Of course, you don't.
But in this case, what Lucy_Pyre literally said was also meant essentially, again they even clarified it:

GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely...

"No"..."single"..."situation"...huh. Let me remind you that this was a respond to the statement that situations, you don't necessary need the healers attention, actually exist. This takes it to a whole new level of irony.

But it doesn't stop there. They then proceed to quote cactuarzzzz with a simple "snip", and deceptively alter their claim:

The claim that WAR is *always* capable of dealing with their own health management during/after Holmgang is, simply put, a lie.

What they really wrote:

I already show you the example[...]

Fury 14 duty action? WAR and GNB need healer intervention as an ST after that? Nope.

Flame Tornado during conflag? WAR and GNB need healer intervention to keep them alive after that? Nope. Because after that it's a stack mechanic which healer taking care of by aoe heal everyone.

E7S's double laser that last only like 5 secs? Nope. Unless the GNB is MT

Again, this "*always*"...sigh. Nowhere and never has cactuarzzzz ever said that WAR was "always" capable of managing their health. All they said was: WAR and GNB do not need healers intervention as long as said tanks remain in their "OT" position.
(Sorry, I am late to defend you here against this false accusation, cactuarzzzz.)

Let's go even further back, and let us remember that this is a "Living Dead"-issue thread. It's about the fact that "Walking Dead" will always need healers assistance. (Maybe you could swap to a low level job after you have recovered HP through server ticks? Is it even possible to switch to other jobs while Walking Dead debuff is active? Anyway...)
Yet, somehow this evolved into a discussion which tank has the most burst heal, or if they can burst heal, and if it would be enough for next [something, something].
In reality that matters little. What really matters is the burden we put on healers, especially non-WHM healers, with this ability. Considering the drawback from LD for both tank and healer, I am not even surprised that long-time DRKs like e.g. Lyth would rather see all Invuls being removed.
Let me gather some of your stuff:

It's worse than the other invuln abilities in some situations, it's better than the others in some other situations. With coordinated play (and admittedly having a WHM) LD turns into the single best tank invuln due to the fact that it combines Hallowed Ground's length with (nearly) Holmgang's cooldown. Does it function poorly as an "Oh shit, the healer can't keep me up" button in dungeon pulls with randoms? Sure. But then again, Holmgang is subpar in that same situation. I think it's poor form to judge a cooldown based around poor play and execution on the players' part; especially when, when proper play and usage, LD is extremely powerful. The only invuln that I would put as superior to it when used properly is Holmgang simply due to the fact that Holmgang has 60 seconds less on its cooldown.

While most of what you said is technically true, its wording is very misleading. LD may be better than the others in some situations, but these situations occure way less. The duration of LD/WD is less than 10s. On paper it's 10s + 10s prep-time, but the actual duration is barely longer than 8s, even when coordinated, because you have to take healer GCD recast and server tick into mind. Additionally, you admitted a WHM is most likely required, which makes it already worse. (Unless someone likes forced compositions.) I might have my take on dungeon-related usage later (probably not, that's too deep). The last part about Holmgang is almost entirely true. 1min lower recast is indeed already better, but there is another point which is that it also misses the healing requirement.

On another point, I said that can be the strongest invuln with proper play and coordination, and a WHM. In a general sense, Holmgang is the strongest invuln in a larger number of scenarios. That doesn't detract from LD's strength though. Try to come up with some legitimate points of contention next time.

This is actually quite ironic. Here Lucy is asking for legitimate points to prove LD being bad, but at the same time fail to deliver "LD's strength" points themselves, and simply fed us up "sometimes it's better".

The entire design of all of the invulns (barring HG) is that they each require healer intervention to keep the tank from dying immediately afterwards. As I already said, WAR is the only tank that can sometimes do it solo.

This is... contradictory in itself, and also quite the take on tank invuls. I agree on removing Hallowed out of the equation, as even YoshiP once said in an interview that SE devs consider Hallowed overpowered. (Whether I agree with that statement or not, that is another story.) But... if all invuls require immediate healer assistence by design, why is it possible for WAR to heal a considerate amount of HP to counter this? Well, would it be true, why is the healing requirement on LD much higher than Holmgang despite the longer recast? If you post a theory you have to provide something of value, otherwise it's just baseless assumption.

Believe me when I say that the only possible way WAR is healing 80% of their HP on their own is via the use of ToB, Equilibrium, and Nascent Flash during either Inner Release or with 2 Nascent Chaos charges. If the tankbuster lines up with all of those things, fantastic. The reality is that, however, most of the time it doesn't. I've played WAR long enough to know *quite* well how much it's capable of managing its own health bar in most situations. Once again, if things line up that nicely with the WAR's rotation, it's all well and good. Things rarely do line up that nicely, though.

Again, despite the statement before, according to their own experience it's actually possible? Let's just forget the fact that it's also possible to get past the 80% of max HP (because AAs, Upheaval and Onslaught, as well as Equilibrium-crit have been ignored), or that it doesn't need to happen within 5s, but can also be spread out through the rotation as long as it's not lethal. Nevertheless, I don't get the mindset to being full HP before or after a buster immediately. It's important that none of the incoming damage is lethal. In the end, it doesn't matter if you restore "up to 80%" in an instant or over 30s, as long as you don't die. Or as an old saying goes: "The most important hit point is the last one."

The claim that WAR is *always* capable of dealing with their own health management during/after Holmgang is, simply put, a lie. [...]That is why WAR's ability to manage its own health bar after using Holmgang is a variable statement[...]

Suddenly jumping from one claim to another, while the "real" claim has never been mentioned or even quoted, yet the "claim" closest to the original is placed right in the middle of a wall of text. This is manipulating the reader in their own favor, unintentionally or not. (Heck, even I had to re-read that phrase to be sure.)

GNB cannot heal its own health bar after a buster back up to a safe level in a short period of time. GNB therefore always requires the aid of a healer when using Superbolide. You are mistaking long-term minor healing as serving the same purpose as WAR's burst healing. The two are very different things and cannot be equated to one another or used for the same purpose.

Here, Lucy is trying to defend their claim...

GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely...

...but at the same time differs between burst healing, and long-term healing. This is once again contradictory, and is written in a way that it ignores what has already been said or written, and only benefits your own cause. It doesn't follow the discussion, but sets a new standpoint.
Snipping and re-writing statements to please your own argument, in the end, falsifing facts, and is highly manipulative to the average reader.

[...]OT, MT, it doesn't matter in the slightest. If the GNB has to use Superbolide they will *always* require aid from a healer either immediately or very nearly afterwards.

GNB (OT) doesn't need any heal if it's the first tank buster that gets invul'ed. The next damage they recieve doesn't happen before the next ~2 min.

Proven wrong. But yeah, better claim that long-term healing was never an option, despite saying *always*. This... wouldn't be a problem, but Lucy insist vehemently on it being *always*. Which either means they are doing it unintenionally, fail to understand what *always* means, and fail to differ between 2 different situations, or flat out don't care about twisting the facts as long as it benefits them. I fear it being the last.

I would call it "just my 2 cents", but yeah, can't do that. I just can't sit quietly when I see false facts being spread. It's not the first time this much manipulation has happened from Lucy_Pyre, when others just don't agree with them (or vice versa). This is no discussion, but a one-sided "self-dialogue".
Maybe, you should start taking your own advise to heart:

Honestly I'm beginning to question if you're just a troll or not. I refuse to believe that you can be this tone deaf or disingenuous unintentionally. It's really not even worth the time to try to correct all the nonsense that comes out of your mouth.

And I have done it and spend too much time already.

@any who ask if I didn't have anything better to do: No, I didn't. It got on my nerves, and I had to clear my mind.

[Tranquilmelody7]

Superbolide isn't much better in solo content than Living Dead, since even if you pop Aurora right as you activate it you aren't getting *that* much health back before the immunity times out. Holmgang in the same situation is +/- depending on if the WAR has ToB & Equil up, since we can't use Nascent without one other party member (SE plz). As for using healing resources, sure, you're technically correct. Even if that is the case, though, LD doesn't take *that* much to heal up with two healers in 8 man content. An AST and SCH can take the DRK from 1 HP to full in two GCDs, together, if either of them get crits on Essential Dignity/Lustrate. If no crits it'll take 3 GCDs most likely, but crit rates are pretty comfy these days. Honestly the only healer I can see having any issues dealing with LD in light party content is SCH. WHM obviously has Bene, and AST can snapshot ED at 1HP with other heals in unison for a huge burst heal, plus two ED charges makes it even less of an issue. While yes, SCH can still manage it with Aetherflow up (or burning Dissipation to get it if necessary) it'll likely still require burning 2 Lustrate's, Excog, and a crit Adlo with Emergency Tactics at the least; which is a pretty significant resource drain, I admit.

You may be surprised as the amount of solo play situations you can salvage pertaining to use of Holmang and Superbollide.

First off, you can utilize a healer chocobo to manage Holmang(Any type of chocobo should be sufficient to keep yourself topped off with Nascent Flash in most situations) and Superbollide, making them viable options for virtually all overworld content.
Naturally, that isn't the case Living Dead, with the cumulative 100% HP requirement being unattainable.

Secondly, sustaining potions in palace of the dead are surprisingly enough to manage both Holmang and Superbollide.
I'm not too familiar with using them, but there is a similar item in Eureka that may be sufficient for solo usage of Holmang and Superbollide in Eureka Anemos and Pagos.
Once access to Logograms is granted in Pyros and Hydatos, I can definitely vouch for logos action like Bloodbath being sufficient enough to use in tandem with Holmang and Superbollide.
Once again, that is not the case for Living Dead - which is honestly kind of sad.

Apart from straight forward running of undersized content, there are honestly quite a few contextual actions and skills accessible that may provide players with access to unique heals in solo content.
They can be often be adequate to utilize in conjunction with Holmang and Superbollide, but will virtually never be enough to get any use out of Living Dead in solo play.

My general point is that the amount of healing resources that Living Dead is essentially uncomparable to those required by any other tank CD in the game.
The fact that you may even have to consult and employ a healing rotation to manage the skill speaks volumes as to something going wrong in development.

Firstly, LD is not a bad skill. You and your team plan out when you are going to use it and there's no problems, which is what you should be doing anyway. Learn to communicate.

I feel you're conflating a 'manageable' skill with a 'satisfactory' one.
Living Dead's downsides are greater than those of any other Tank CD in the game, with the invulnerability phase still only having a maximum duration of 9 seconds to compensate.
The only practical advantage of Living Dead is the 10 second buffer period, which is of limited benefit in high end content where communication with party members and preparation for enemy damage and mechanics are vital.

There's no point discussing it's merits outside of raiding, because it literally doesn't matter. Casual content is casual content, you die, so what.

This statement, is frankly; utter rubbish.
Non-raiding content constitutes the majority of the combat encounters in the game.
Just because the skills and strategies employed aren't as great as those in high end encounters, doesn't automatically make any relevant gameplay issues and concerns invalid - that's just outrageous.

It's dumber to look at balance seperatedly between overall defense and invul instead of the entire class design.

Skills indeed don't exist in a vacuum, so there is a modicum of truth in your crude statement.
However, judging skills on their own merits as well as in context of a class's entire toolkit should ideally both be critical perspectives to practice during game development.
I don't think anyone in here is implying DRK should have the best tank invulnerability skill(Or even not the worst!( to coincide with the mighty TBN.
I myself would be quite satisfied if Living Dead merely wasn't as terribly impractical and unenjoyable to use as it is now.

2/3 of the damn WAR playerbase doesn't ever touch Nascent Flash because they think it's 'bad' since it requires a target to use. Does that mean that we should remove Nascent Flash from WAR? No, of course not. It's WAR's most potent cooldown outside of Holmgang.

This is yet another highly unpleasant strawman argument to witness.
No one is asking for the outright removal of Living Dead.
We are requesting a prompt rework of the move, or at least tweaks to make the healing requirements easier to meet.
It's WAR's most potent cooldown outside of Holmgang also don't know what prompted you to conjure that suspect "2/3 of the WAR playerbase."
The overwhelming majority of level 76 and above WAR players I crew up with use Nascent Flash as applicable.
Personal ancedotes I'm sure, but with more grounding than the nebulous unsupported claim you just made.

Although I will admit that every now and then on forums I witness someone propose that the target requirement for Nascent Flash be removed, which I feel we both agree is also a fair case to make.

I do agree however, that Nascent Flash is an extremely effective skill, actually being my favorite added this expansion.

VERY LONG POST

Normally I'd say: "Wow, someone is holding a grudge!"
Instead I'll just comment on that being the most impressive in-depth articulate analysis of someone's post history that I've ever seen.
Bravo.

[Lucy_Pyre]

overworld content

Ah yes let's start judging things by how effective they are at content that quite literally is utterly meaningless 99.9% of the time. Big brain.

[Tranquilmelody7]

Ah yes let's start judging things by how effective they are at content that quite literally is utterly meaningless 99.9% of the time. Big brain.

Why is overworld content pointless?
Is it just because you say it is?

Now, you can of course argue that in overworld combat stakes are much lower and fights are much easier than instanced content, but that's still a plethora of respective instances(No pun intended)where DRK has an utterly useless CD to compound on said skill being painful to use in the majority of combat encounters in this game.

By all means though, feel free to overlook the other examples I alluded to if it means you can get your Ad Hominem across.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Why is overworld content pointless?
Is it just because you say it is?

Now, you can of course argue that in overworld combat stakes are much lower and fights are much easier than instanced content, but that's still a plethora of respective instances(No pun intended)where DRK has an utterly useless CD to compound on said skill being painful to use in the majority of combat encounters in this game.

By all means though, feel free to overlook the other examples I alluded to if it means you can get your Ad Hominem across.

Overworld content is meaningless because you could put a doped-up monkey at a keyboard and it could successfully complete overworld content. It's irrelevant to discuss it.