We really need to talk about Living Dead

[ItMe]

GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely

This statement is plain wrong. If the GNB would remain MT, they will likely need the healers attention.

Maybe Lucy_Pyre is being hyperbolic, but regardless of if their statement is literally true or essentially true it still serves their point.
Let's not get stuck on semantics please.

[cactuarzzzz]

e5s- e7s don't require you to use invul if played correctly, pointless argument.

The point isn't E5s- E7s require invul or not. The point is in end game even with the situations with heaviest attacks in E5s- E7s like I said WAR and GNB won't die immediately afterward if they don't receive healer interventions if they use invuls like someone claimed but I guess if any tank decided to used it then they aren't played correctly according to the person who believe LD is 20secs invuls.

This in a nutshell. I struggle to fathom why Fury Fourteen from E5S is being picked as an examle for invulning, Shadow Wall + TBN + Reprisal / Feint / any form of healer shield and you are safe without it. Same with Flame Tornados in E6S and Stygian Stake + Silver Stake laser combo. Particularly the last of those is the only thing in E7S that does some actual damage to tanks.

Because there is no other opportunities for invuls in e5s - e7s. The test is Does WAR and GNB would die immediately afterward if they don't receive interventions from the healer like someone claim it to be?

[cactuarzzzz]

Maybe Lucy_Pyre is being hyperbolic, but regardless of if their statement is literally true or essentially true it still serves their point.
Let's not get stuck on semantics please.

Would be alright if she doesn't try to compare it to other invuls and make it sound like LD isn't bad. Tranquilmelody already told how bad it is.

The constant comparisons between Living Dead and Holmang and Superbollide are highly disingenuous.

You are by no means required to receive a cumulative 100% of your HP in heals, making them far easier to manage than Living Dead.

WAR also, as previously mentioned; has plenty of options to carry themselves out of the ballpark of death.

[cactuarzzzz]

*snip*

Of all the situations you pick the one that all tank except maybe PLD have no chance without the healer. I could say that "I don't care about the Titan in the savage last tier" too. If I go for the sake of wining just like you.

Seriously tho, How about swap DRK with WAR in that situations and watch how harder it would be for DRK and the Healer who have to deal with them if DRK use LD and see if it reinforce your claim that "LD isn't bad"?

[Lyth]

The question isn't whether invulns can be used without receiving healing. If you're doing remotely current raid content, you will require healer intervention at some point during the ten minute fight. This is a strawman argument that has nothing to do with the invuln in question at all. It just has to do with the availability of self-healing in relation to the incoming damage.

What differentiates Living Dead from the other invulns is that the ability itself kills you in the absence of a healer. As a test of this, start up a solo PotD or HoH run on a tank. The only tank which cannot use their invuln in the run is DRK.

[Tranquilmelody7]

Maybe Lucy_Pyre is being hyperbolic, but regardless of if their statement is literally true or essentially true it still serves their point.
Let's not get stuck on semantics please.

Pray tell, what is their point exactly?
That most tank invulnerability should ideally be activated in conjunction with assistance from healers, so Living Dead is fine?

The only two inate advantages of Living Dead are the 1-10 second(Let's be real, you'll utilize 9 seconds for both phases at absolute best) buffer period prior to the invulnerability, and relatively short 5 minute cooldown.

As aforementioned, the long potential duration of Living is only practical to utilize in heavily coordinated runs, I.E. savage content.

In many, if not most other situations, you're likely to have your healer top you off with heals two quickly, ending the invulnerability phase prematurely.
...That's assuming you don't flat out die from the Walking Dead debuff.

Please, allow me to draw up some quick comparisons to the other skills here:

-Hallowed Ground: 10 seconds of pure invulnerability, simple and clean.
The longest cooldown of them all, 8 minutes to compensate.
-Holmang: Tight timing for this one, with only 8(7) seconds of total mitigation upon reaching 1 HP.
The shortest cooldown of all them, 4 minutes to compensate.
A target is no longer required, and the move now offers a free bind regardless of whether the migitation is ever applied.
-Superbollide: The second heaviest cost of them all, reducing your HP to 1 upon activation. However, the cost is paid up front.
Although you must always offer up some HP, you are guaranteed a full 8 seconds of afterwards.
While subjective, I'd like to add that I find aiming for the best timing by waiting for my HP to drop as low as possible before activating the move quite satisfying.
6 minute cooldown, middle of the road.
-And last, but not least, Living Dead:
I could write up another paragraph by detailing this convoluted
mess of a move, so I'll just leave this here
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tent=post_body
Living Dead has the heaviest cost of any move in the game, flat out killing if you don't purge the invulnerability/doom effect(lol) in time.
For solo play, you can at best use the move to flail about for an extra ten second before you die.

The polaziring nature of living dead ends up with it leaning towards one of two extremes in most scenarios:
-Heavily coordinated groups, where it might actually be the most useful invulnerability if you can coordinated with your healers to maximize it's duration and shortish CD.
-All other forms combat content, where it is frankly trash.
The most user unfriendly skill in the game with a literal death penalty, and completely unsatisfying to boot by forcing you to be utterly dependent on a dedicated healer.

With a huge portion of players decrying the move for it's general unfriendliess, the exceptionally convoluted nature of the skill making it so that many players don't even understand it, and the ludicrously demanding debuff, I feel it's fair to declare the move as badly designed.

If you disagree that's fine, but don't attempt to stifle genuine criticism.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Pray tell, what is their point exactly?

My point is that you lack an understanding of the difference between longer term, more passive, healing versus the more active burst healing that WAR has. My point is also that no matter what the situation is, if a GNB uses Superbolide, they will require assistance from a healer to bring their health back up into safe & stable territory (hint: sitting on 40k HP out of almost 200k is not what counts as 'safe' or 'stable'). You can go on about GNB's long-term healing with Brutal Shell's passive heal and multiple Aurora uses all you want, but that is a completely moot point to go on in the first place seeing as the subject at hand is "tank being able to bring their own HP to a safe territory after an invuln/TB solo or not"; and it's a simple matter of fact that GNB cannot do that solo. The only sources of healing GNB has is Aurora, which is a HoT that only heals around 30-35k HP, and Brutal Shell's passive heal which heals for, in a generous estimate, 8k. Neither of these will bring your health high enough to where a healer doesn't need to do anything to you, even if we expand the time frame to allow for Aurora's full 20 seconds which, spoiler, is an extremely generous allotment. Once again; the only reason that WAR has the capability to stabilize their own HP after invulning is due to their healing functioning in a short burst of health gain. If you want to argue this point more then I can't stop you, but the very kits of the two tanks proves you to be incorrect and I don't see why you're continually trying to insist that you have a leg to stand on other than to save face.

[Danelo]

Living Dead being the worst invuln on the tank with the best non-invuln mitigation kit is fine.

Ill be happy to admit that I am fine with how LD is as long I can keep TBN at current power and circumvent LD use and make it niche / tactical instead. Power budget seems right on point to me, but let's keep judging invulns in a vacuum instead of the entire kits, clearly this is the more important metric.

Isn’t DRK already paying for TBN with it’s lack of self sustain comparatively to the rest of the tanks? Yes. This mindset is a sandpit. This idea is a one way street that only seems to be applied to DRK if at all. SE doesn’t level classes around ultimates... they are legacies devs leave in bcs they are too afraid to touch them... except inWAR case. DRK should be able to cleanse WD by itself.

[AC9Breaker]

I think Rongway really hit the nail on the head with his first post and Seraphor offered an interesting suggestion.

From most of the other posts I skimmed here, it seems like a bunch of healers complaining about having to put in effort; which is ironic because it seems like the biggest complaint coming out of the healer camp these days is its too boring and not challenging.

[kobe-sabi]

why dont they turn the TBN into a 30% to 35% heal when LD turns into WD, you sacrafice a free Flood and Edge proc to self heal, or just add convalescence and awareness to WD