We really need to talk about Living Dead

[Lyth]

It's not a question of balance. It's a question of functionality. Fix the incorrect tooltip, and fix the poor design, from human factors, to gui, to execution. It's broken. If you can't figure out how to fix it, just get rid of invulns altogether. We're better off without them.

It's been what, five years? We deserve better.

[cactuarzzzz]

GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely, or did you conveniently forget about the fact that Superbolide cuts your HP to 1 upon activation? As for WAR, as I already said, it's entirely possible for them to bring their own HP back under control in some situations. However, the time during the WAR's rotation in which the need to use Holmgang happens isn't always so kind. When *that* happens, yes, WAR needs help from a healer too. Honestly I'm beginning to question if you're just a troll or not. I refuse to believe that you can be this tone deaf or disingenuous unintentionally. It's really not even worth the time to try to correct all the nonsense that comes out of your mouth.

I already show you the example of when and where from e5s- e7s and how it didn't require healer intervention after invuls end to keep them from dying immediately afterwards like you claim. While you only going on about the vague claim which only god know when and where it happen. No. I think between us if anyone is spitting nonsense IT IS YOU.

The claim that ALL INVULS required healer intervention is now reduced to 2. Which several people in this thread, Drk main and Healers included say LD is the worst but someone just can't accept that.

[Miminming]

I already show you the example of when and where from e5s- e7s and how it didn't require healer intervention after invuls end to keep them from dying immediately afterwards like you claim. While you only going on about the vague claim which only god know when and where it happen. No. I think between us if anyone is spitting nonsense IT IS YOU.

The claim that ALL INVULS required healer intervention is now reduced to 2. Which several people in this thread, Drk main and Healers included say LD is the worst but someone just can't accept that.

e5s- e7s don't require you to use invul if played correctly, pointless argument.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

e5s- e7s don't require you to use invul if played correctly, pointless argument.

This in a nutshell. I struggle to fathom why Fury Fourteen from E5S is being picked as an examle for invulning, Shadow Wall + TBN + Reprisal / Feint / any form of healer shield and you are safe without it. Same with Flame Tornados in E6S and Stygian Stake + Silver Stake laser combo. Particularly the last of those is the only thing in E7S that does some actual damage to tanks.

[Lucy_Pyre]

snip

The claim that WAR is *always* capable of dealing with their own health management during/after Holmgang is, simply put, a lie. As I have said prior, there are times where the need to use Holm and/or Nascent lines up kindly with WAR's rotation and their ability to put out burst damage, and thus healing, for NF. That isn't always the case, however. If we're going to make a baseline statement then that statement must be based around the average, not the absolute best possible outcome. Am I capable of healing upwards of 120k HP on my WAR in a pinch? Yes. But only if I have access to ToB, Equilibrium, and I use 2 Inner Chaos charges as well as a Fell Cleave and Upheaval under Inner Release during the Nascent Flash window. Needless to say this is a situation that is simply not always going to be possible. A more realistic average would be to assume 1 Inner Chaos and one non-IR Fell Cleave which can be used during this theoretical average use of NF, as well as either a Maim or Storm's Path. Assuming that FC doesn't crit it will only heal you for around 10k-ish, while SP will heal for around 7-8k on its normal heal and around 4.5k on its NF heal, with IC generating around 25k healing. This totals out to 47k health restored, and it gets removed down to a maximum of 40k or even less if Storm's Path isn't used with its bonus heal from the ability itself.

Now, I can't say with exact certainty how much bosses this savage tier auto for as I don't care for the fights this tier, but Titan savage last tier auto attacked for 33k so we'll just assume that around a 40k auto is what you'll be eating here. This means that, from this average NF usage (which I'm even being generous on which moves get used in it in the first place) that leaves the WAR with more or less the exact amount of health to die to an auto attack, with either living or dying being able to be shifted between based on the raw variance of both the auto attack damage and heal values. So in this situation, even the WAR needs some assistance from the healer to not immediately drop dead. Of course, one could simply save ToB and/or Equilibrium to use in conjunction with Nascent Flash during this usage of Holmgang, and if the fight allows for you to do that, then that's great. That does not, however, remove the fact that that is simply not always going to be possible. That is why WAR's ability to manage its own health bar after using Holmgang is a variable statement, but primarily due to the fact that Nascent Flash's healing is based upon the damage they deal. Sometimes WAR needs no help, sometimes it does. Sometimes the time where NF is needed to be used in a fight lines up with WAR's burst in its rotation and the healers can ignore you, sometimes it doesn't line up so kindly and you need more attention. That's just the nature of damage-based healing mitigation.

[ForteNightshade]

I already show you the example of when and where from e5s- e7s and how it didn't require healer intervention after invuls end to keep them from dying immediately afterwards like you claim. While you only going on about the vague claim which only god know when and where it happen. No. I think between us if anyone is spitting nonsense IT IS YOU.

The claim that ALL INVULS required healer intervention is now reduced to 2. Which several people in this thread, Drk main and Healers included say LD is the worst but someone just can't accept that.

Except your examples for E5-7 are for the OT being AoE healed. That's a false equivalent since they aren't actively being attacked, thus they wouldn't need healing regardless of their invuln usage. Instead of Gunbreaker using Superbolide on Fourteen's Fury, they use it on Crippling Blow as the MT. You will inevitably to the next auto without a healer spot healing. Aurora alone won't cover remotely enough damage to offset that.

[ArianeEwah]

snip

Even then those examples are legit. Hell, even in E7s with WAR as MT, and using Holmgang on the "shared tether" and even outside their burst window, they can heal themselves till betwixt if ToB and Equilibrium are timed well, the rest is handled by NF. You don't always necessary need healers intervention here.

DRK Living Dead on the other hand can not be handled without a healers help. You'll always need a healer, but not always for Holmgang or Superbolide. Yet, this was Lucy was writing "quote on quote":

GNB will ***always*** require healer intervention after they use Superbolide. There is no single situation where the GNB hits Super and the healer can just ignore them entirely

This statement is plain wrong. If the GNB would remain MT, they will likely need the healers attention.
E.g. in E8s you can invul Double Slap which applies a debuff. You can time it perfectly with a 10s invul and no tank swap is needed, but Superbolide and Holmgang are not enough to keep the boss and a tank swap becames necessary. GNB does not need a heal because they don't recieve any damage at that point, and they can heal themselves a little with Aurora and single target combo. I can imagine in an optimized run, healers leave GNB alone until they heal the party for the Light Rampant aoe.
Same goes for E7s, too. GNB doesn't need any heal if it's the first tank buster that gets invul'ed. The next damage they recieve doesn't happen before the next ~2 min.

Edit: btw when I play WAR in my static I tell them it's an insult to heal a warrior. While I say that as a joke there is still some truth behind it. Even in TEA you can heal yourself from 30% to 100% with NF and Rampart during your opener.

[Lucy_Pyre]

This statement is plain wrong

No, not it entirely is not. Aurora heals for roughly the same amount of HP as a non-crit Equilibrium while Brutal Shell's heal isn't even 10k. That's not even 40k health that the GNB is healing on their own. OT, MT, it doesn't matter in the slightest. If the GNB has to use Superbolide they will *always* require aid from a healer either immediately or very nearly afterwards.

[ArianeEwah]

No, not it entirely is not.

Yes, it is. You said GNB "***ALWAYS***" needs a healer. That is simply not true. GNB does NOT "***ALWAYS***" need healers intervention.
Back to E7s example: Aurora heals for roughly 35k if no regen tick crits. Brutal Shell heals for ~4.4k non-crit on hit, ~7k crit. On average, Brutal Shell heals for ~40k from the first tank buster/Superbolide usage to Betwixt, and you get 2 Aurora squeezed in. That's roughly 110k healing in ~2 min from GNB alone, and that amount is more than enough for the tank/healer stack.
So, it does matter whether GNB is MT or OT. You can leave them alone if they are OT.

The thing is: it's not used in actual practice. But that is a problem with pugs/non-optimized parties, not with the theory. I see so many White Mages using Bene on GNB OT when they should actually save it for the 2nd buster ~2 min later. Because if that hits a WAR or even DRK who are holding aggro, and they invul, it will require way more ressources to heal them. (On the other hand, I can't even blame them for their distrust on pug tanks. I've seen tanks not using a single cd during add phases there, even tho they don't need them for 2/3 min.)
I could go in E7s as GNB OT with a some friends and tell them to NOT heal me after the first invul, and there would be no issue. The first actual heal would be AFTER the stack before empty wave hits *just like the rest of the party*.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Yes, it is. You said GNB "***ALWAYS***" needs a healer. That is simply not true.

GNB cannot heal its own health bar after a buster back up to a safe level in a short period of time. GNB therefore always requires the aid of a healer when using Superbolide. You are mistaking long-term minor healing as serving the same purpose as WAR's burst healing. The two are very different things and cannot be equated to one another or used for the same purpose.