Tanking in FF14 question

[BarretOblivion]

You hit the Enmity management and Stance swapping especially right on the head. Just spent like the last hour looking through threads on tanking and see nothing but tanks. Wanting the old days of go Offensive stance, then expect healers and dps too use ENMITY REDUCING ABILITES whenever their up. So Mr or Mrs. tank could continue to spam their dps abilites and avoid their Defensive stance. Grit,sword oath, Defiance no longer grant damage reduction only enmity generation. So they could just leave it down and lower their enmity generation just like if they were in Offensive stance. As healer I should not have to lax at my job because my tank wants to play dps instead of Tank.

Im sorry to say this but... you are just bad then. Everyone got used to doing it and timing thier hate drops when they are needed (example during burst heals or dps). You never laxed your job in SB, if you did, something was wrong. Either you didn't Lucid, or tanks weren't shirking each other.

[NanaWiloh]

Im sorry to say this but... you are just bad then. Everyone got used to doing it and timing thier hate drops when they are needed (example during burst heals or dps). You never laxed your job in SB, if you did, something was wrong. Either you didn't Lucid, or tanks weren't shirking each other.

It was in 4 mans where it happend, never happened in raids cause of two tanks and two healers. Tanks that want the enmity managment back can have it the day SE locks you into Defensive stance while in a 4 man. You can stance dance in Raids where two tanks are present so the chance that at least one of the two is paying attention to aggro. The old system worked fine in a raid enviroment but was a nightmare in 4 mans.

This is How I would bring it back.

1. Make defensive stances increase the enmity created by enmity generating abilities only.

2. Give tanks 1 more pure enmity generator (Enmity will need to be lowered to ensure both get used.)

3. Make enmity generators OGCD abilities.

4. Remove Enmity generation from tank dps abilities.

Result tanks will have to rotate their pure enmity generators into their dps rotation. Hard part would be balancing so you dont have to hit the generators every time you do your dps rotation. The idea here simple put dps and healers on a tanks skirt tails for Enmity with the tanks having to use enmity generators more often then they do now.

[ReiMakoto]

It was in 4 mans where it happend, never happened in raids cause of two tanks and two healers. Tanks that want the enmity managment back can have it the day SE locks you into Defensive stance while in a 4 man. You can stance dance in Raids where two tanks are present so the chance that at least one of the two is paying attention to aggro. The old system worked fine in a raid enviroment but was a nightmare in 4 mans.

This is How I would bring it back.

1. Make defensive stances increase the enmity created by enmity generating abilities only.

2. Give tanks 1 more pure enmity generator (Enmity will need to be lowered to ensure both get used.)

3. Make enmity generators OGCD abilities.

4. Remove Enmity generation from tank dps abilities.

Result tanks will have to rotate their pure enmity generators into their dps rotation. Hard part would be balancing so you dont have to hit the generators every time you do your dps rotation. The idea here simple put dps and healers on a tanks skirt tails for Enmity with the tanks having to use enmity generators more often then they do now.

If you were losing aggro when stance dancing in 4 man content you were just bad, even in trash pulls my grit was on for maybe 1 unleash then it was dps time and nothing lost aggro. Dungeon bosses were so short 1 aggro combo was enough to hold the boss till it died, or 2 if you had a good dps that for some reason didnt press their free aggro buttons.

Also you emnity idea just sounds incredibly arbitrary, I dont understand whats fun about it.

[NanaWiloh]

If you were losing aggro when stance dancing in 4 man content you were just bad, even in trash pulls my grit was on for maybe 1 unleash then it was dps time and nothing lost aggro. Dungeon bosses were so short 1 aggro combo was enough to hold the boss till it died, or 2 if you had a good dps that for some reason didnt press their free aggro buttons.

Also you emnity idea just sounds incredibly arbitrary, I dont understand whats fun about it.

The idea pushes you too actually maintain threat rather 1 button or one combo and done. Which is funny cause the old system and the new system are the same in that regard instead of one aggro combo its one button aggro now. Only difference No offensive stance and no penatly for using Defensive.

[Maeka]

The idea pushes you too actually maintain threat rather 1 button or one combo and done. Which is funny cause the old system and the new system are the same in that regard instead of one aggro combo its one button aggro now. Only difference No offensive stance and no penatly for using Defensive.

Yeah, gotta love the people who seem to think there was some kind of difference between turning stance on/off and today.

"REMEMBER THEM DAYS WHEN YOU NEEDED GRIT FOR THE FIRST UNLEASH!? I MISS THOSE DAYS!!!!"

......sigh.

Yeah, like turning Grit off after one Unleash was just awesome gameplay or something.

Meanwhile, newbie tanks who left Grit (or whatever stance) on got yelled at, scolded, mocked, etc.

I'm going to repeat that.

It was considered bad play to use your defensive stance as a tank because it did "less DPS". A whole 10% less. Not that tanks were ever anywhere close to the top of the DPS charts, and not like you didn't already have 2 other people there whose job it was to kill junk, and not like that 10% DPS really did that much of a difference in 4man content.

EDIT: And before anybody yells at me about OTs and everybody should do DPS, etc. For tanks and heals, DPS is a tertiary job. In 8-man fights (which I am not talking about here), the OT is a gimp DPS until or unless he is needed, depending on the fight or if the MT dies. Obviously. He should be doing whatever he can to do as much DPS as possible, because there's literally nothing else he can do. But in 4man groups, the tank's first job is to keep mobs on him and his second job should be to keep himself alive. This includes defensive abilities, including stance back when that was a thing. And besides... losing the 10% defense on the stance meant healers had to cast more heals and do less DPS as a result and if the tank mis-calculated how much threat everybody else put out, this was a further waste to the healer's time when other people need heals dumped on them as a result. I often questioned just how effective going without stance really was, considering these points.

[ForgottenScholar]

All I can say is does anyone want some chips/fries to go with all this salt?? Haha only joking.............

I have been playing this game since open beta 1.0, and over the years one thing has always stayed the same..........the constant complaints about my job.

Last expansions it was so bad pld and whm were shunned so much because someone decided at the top 1% that they were rubbish and that spilled all the way down to the casual crowd too. And don’t get me started on dps.

SE homogenised the healers and tanks cos effectively you have been asking for it since 2.0 with constant putting down of jobs just because the top 1% hated that particular job for the sake of the meta, and complaining that my job doesn’t have the skill of that job.

And anyone that’s complaining cos you have 15 less buttons to press every 30 seconds seriously needs to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Good game design isn’t necessarily about button smashes per min. Instead of complaining about loss of abilities and less ogcd’s you have for the sake of hotbar bloat, y isn’t anyone asking for better fight/game design...........especially considering SE said in the last live letter there looking at this very thing. More challenging fights across the board for all players.

Cos we know this is an MMO right? That literally means as Spock quite nicely says “the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many”.

If your honestly fed up of the game and you hate playing..........don’t, there will always be other games to go and play.......and maybe one day you might wanna come back to this and see.

But effectively all this complaining is gonna do is make this like wow where every job is a dps. Then what will we all complain about then.

[Maeka]

More challenging fights across the board for all players.

Meh.

So basically we're going to get another Shinryu.

Awesome.

/sarcasm

You can't really do that kind of thing in MSQ dungeons because it becomes a barrier to a lot of people who end up in bad groups who don't have FCs who can help them through it. I know back during the Shinryu thing, the FC I was in at the time, I had to ask several times before I finally got some help with it.

I'm fine with optional content being slightly harder, but let's keep that junk out of MSQ.

[Claire_Pendragon]

So basically we're going to get another Shinryu.
Awesome.
/sarcasm
I'm fine with optional content being slightly harder, but let's keep that junk out of MSQ.

Shinryu was never hard though.
It just had the illusion of being hard.
Tidal wave was just cheap, but easily handled.
Chains are obnoxious, but easily handled.
Ahk Morn is easily handled. Just stand next to eachother, and even if u failed to use rampart minimally, you could still survive it, if the healers werent too busy rezzing everyone who failed to dodge aoes.
not standing in the pillar of death was a bit hard to understand, since it lacks conveyance. But that doesnt make it hard to handle. And even then, thats not a big deal in the end. if the group mostly failed that mechanic most of the time, you can still rez up and keep going.
everything else was pretty basic, or something really easy to handle, youve seen before.

you didnt even have to have good DPS, you just had to actually press tab to target the tail, and even with half the DPS dead, can still kill it. Which is where MOST of the damage to shinryu came from. (Each tail kill i think is 30% of his max hp. So if u kill it 3 times, u just have to deal 10% to the boss. If its 4 kills, then i think its like 20-25% of his HP. But i think it was 3)
I understand u might get 2-3 wipes. Tidal wave alone is going to be one of them, so more realistically 1-2 if u dont count tidal wave. Everyone can, and did get through it. They just didnt have the patience to stop watching their netflix, and look at the screen. Realistically speaking, they were tunnel visioning. But this fight was forging enough on DPS, to such an extent, that you could mess up your rotations, and just focus on dodging, and do just fine. Only in EX/Savage fights are you going to need to dodge, and keep your DPS up. They made Shinryu allow players to darn near just afk auto attack, as long as they were back at their keybords to dodge AoEs, and at least press something basic on the tail, even if it wasnt their rotation.

I used to join groups mid progress, and when they said they kept wiping, i told them to just focus on dodging. even if it meant just pressing 1 button over and over. and we'd ALWAYS clear on the 1st try, with people being surprised how much easier it was when they stopped trying to maximize their DPS.

[ReiMakoto]

Yeah, gotta love the people who seem to think there was some kind of difference between turning stance on/off and today.

"REMEMBER THEM DAYS WHEN YOU NEEDED GRIT FOR THE FIRST UNLEASH!? I MISS THOSE DAYS!!!!"

......sigh.

Yeah, like turning Grit off after one Unleash was just awesome gameplay or something.

Meanwhile, newbie tanks who left Grit (or whatever stance) on got yelled at, scolded, mocked, etc.

I'm going to repeat that.

It was considered bad play to use your defensive stance as a tank because it did "less DPS". A whole 10% less. Not that tanks were ever anywhere close to the top of the DPS charts, and not like you didn't already have 2 other people there whose job it was to kill junk, and not like that 10% DPS really did that much of a difference in 4man content.

EDIT: And before anybody yells at me about OTs and everybody should do DPS, etc. For tanks and heals, DPS is a tertiary job. In 8-man fights (which I am not talking about here), the OT is a gimp DPS until or unless he is needed, depending on the fight or if the MT dies. Obviously. He should be doing whatever he can to do as much DPS as possible, because there's literally nothing else he can do. But in 4man groups, the tank's first job is to keep mobs on him and his second job should be to keep himself alive. This includes defensive abilities, including stance back when that was a thing. And besides... losing the 10% defense on the stance meant healers had to cast more heals and do less DPS as a result and if the tank mis-calculated how much threat everybody else put out, this was a further waste to the healer's time when other people need heals dumped on them as a result. I often questioned just how effective going without stance really was, considering these points.

My dude it was way more than a 10% difference. It was a 20% damage straight up penalty, and the stance locked you out of using certain abilities, in some cases your most powerful abilities. It was more like a 30%+ difference in dps, and trust me it was noticable as tanks could do up to 70% of the damage of a dps, potentially more in dungeons cos their aoe burst was so strong.

I dont want aggro back btw but you are seriously misrepresenting how it was

Edit: in some cases using dps stance over tank stance actually made you more tanky btw. As drk if you used dps stance you could become essentially invincible as dps stance generated way more mana so you could spam abyssal drain and blackest night infinitely making you almost unkillable, and warriors IR burst did so much damage than you could often kill the add pack before the whms holy stun resistance applied to the mobs meaning you took no damagem

[Maeka]

My dude it was way more than a 10% difference. It was a 20% damage straight up penalty, and the stance locked you out of using certain abilities, in some cases your most powerful abilities. It was more like a 30%+ difference in dps, and trust me it was noticable as tanks could do up to 70% of the damage of a dps, potentially more in dungeons cos their aoe burst was so strong.

I dont want aggro back btw but you are seriously misrepresenting how it was

Edit: in some cases using dps stance over tank stance actually made you more tanky btw. As drk if you used dps stance you could become essentially invincible as dps stance generated way more mana so you could spam abyssal drain and blackest night infinitely making you almost unkillable, and warriors IR burst did so much damage than you could often kill the add pack before the whms holy stun resistance applied to the mobs meaning you took no damagem

That just just plain terrible design then, if 2 tanks could do that and the other one couldn't.

It needed fixed.

Dropping your protective stance, and dumping most of your threat generation shouldn't make you *more* tanky and able to do more DPS at the same time. That's just stupid.