It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Penthea]

Many of the posts have blurred together have have anyone for the idea said that they strictly want to able to put people in "reveling" clothing? Ideas have been thrown around, but if it is working towards a tolerable idea as I said I would just want to put people in some standard gear set, be it a black robe, AF gear idk. Personally I like the black robe idea, but I think of most people as NPC's when I see them in cutscenes crazy glam or not.

I just wish those who want the glam removal be actually clear about what they want it to be. They keep rattling on about why they want it, but not much thought seems to be given how they want it to appear.

So many times when I bring up how harassment can happen from players wearing revealing gear when it isn't their choice, I'm simply told "that's unlikely!" and then no comment made about the compromise to have glam removal default to modest clothing. Just told about how "this feature shouldn't be forbidden because of an unlikely event" even though I literally explained a scenario that would allow the feature AND reduce the chances of clothing based harassment.

It frankly gives the impression that they're so caught up in removing glams that they don't care about the ramifications that option could have if it is not introduced with care, and that when anyone points out to any potential problems they obviously must be completely against it in any form even if they suggest a way to do it.

I am unfortunate enough to know the sort of things that can happen when players do not have much control over the gear they wear. I have seen ugly situations and experienced some of them myself. I thought I left that crap behind when transmog/glam came to WoW, but here I am thinking about it again because some people want to remove glams but refuse to think about how such a thing could affect someone else if it is introduced in certain ways.

If glam removal comes to the game, and the gear simply gets defaulted to racial, AF or unglammed combat gear I'll definitely be spending a lot less time in cities. If players who use glam removal, that default to the aforementioned gear, have a visual tag to inform others they unglammed (like others suggested, not me) you can bet your life I would be standing as far away from them as possible. I'm not going to allow myself to have some creep ogle at what unglamming revealed if I can prevent it.

I just want players to be safe from harassment that can come from a lack of control over how their characters appear. Why is this such a bad thing?

[Krotoan]

I just wish those who want the glam removal be actually clear about what they want it to be. They keep rattling on about why they want it, but not much thought seems to be given how they want it to appear.

This is very difficult to pare down when the conversation keeps getting derailed to how immoral and bigoted the supporters are. Not an accusation against you personally but an observation of the patterns in this thread.

I have tried to solidify some sort of at least compromise and so far have come to the solution that at best it would automatically use set (modest) gear for each class/job (possibly tiered like squadron base gear) and randomized customization values but keep race and sex. That way all game mechanical information would be preserved while anonymizing the character and preserving "modesty". Also it'd have to be an all besides player and NPC toggle so as to not single out any particular player AND maybe add on a hard lock to first initial names or party numbers displayed only , NOT full names so as to keep with anonymity for screen shots.

[Awha]

I just wish those who want the glam removal be actually clear about what they want it to be. They keep rattling on about why they want it, but not much thought seems to be given how they want it to appear. So many times when I bring up how harassment can happen from players wearing revealing gear when it isn't their choice, I'm simply told "that's unlikely!" and then no comment made about the compromise to have glam removal default to modest clothing. Just told about how "this feature shouldn't be forbidden because of an unlikely event" even though I literally explained a scenario that would allow the feature AND reduce the chances of clothing based harassment!

It frankly gives the impression that they're so caught up in removing glams that they don't care about the ramifications that option could have if it is not introduced with care, and that when anyone points out to any potential problems they obviously must be completely against it in any form even if they suggest a way to do it.

I am unfortunate enough to know the sort of things that can happen when players do not have much control over the gear they wear. I have seen ugly situations and experienced some of them myself. I thought I left that crap behind when transmog/glam came to WoW, but here I am thinking about it again because some people want to remove glams but refuse to think about how such a thing could affect someone else if it is introduced in certain ways.

If glam removal comes to the game, and the gear simply gets defaulted to racial, AF or unglammed combat gear I'll definitely be spending a lot less time in cities. If players who use glam removal, that default to the aforementioned gear, have a visual tag (like others suggested, not me) you can bet your life I would be standing as far away from them as possible.

I just want players to be safe from harassment that can come from a lack of control over how their characters appear. Why is this such a bad thing?

It is not a bad thing it does suck, and in my case I am not that great at covaying my thoughts, but I tried myself early on to put what I would like to the feature to do, my gear choice would be the basic robe but I get what gear SE uses would be a difficult choice and creates a bunch of issues. I get it can be an emotional topic I know from a personal level being a player that has gotten someone to nearly leave a game because I made a joke about their character. I get that real people are behind the screen, but my brain has a hard time seeing that so thus I do not see a character as an extension of one self, in my eyes it is more like a forum icon.

It was not my intention to ever come off if I did as someone that makes it feel like it is wrong to combat harassment, I may not see it as harassment, or even care or be apologetic--refering the person in the past I made feel bad because I made a joke about their characer--but I do respect and I understand how one could see it as such. My lack of empathy is not a lack of understanding.

This is very difficult to pare down when the conversation keeps getting derailed to how immoral and bigoted the supporters are. Not an accusation against you personally but an observation of the patterns in this thread.

I have tried to solidify some sort of at least compromise and so far have come to the solution that at best it would automatically use set (modest) gear for each class/job (possibly tiered like squadron base gear) and randomized customization values but keep race and sex. That way all game mechanical information would be preserved while anonymizing the character and preserving "modesty". Also it'd have to be an all besides player and NPC toggle so as to not single out any particular player AND maybe add on a hard lock to first initial names or party numbers displayed only , NOT full names so as to keep with anonymity for screen shots.

I did ask a simular question many pages ago but things get blurred, that if people would be annoyed if the option made it so everyone was in say a [insert whatever disred gear here] and said feature also enabled the first letter of the character name would they be against it? Since at that point it would be harder to pin down, not impossile I am sure. More so was wondering if that would be a large enough disconnect between one self and the character that point where one would feel more comfortable.

[Joven]

I just wish those who want the glam removal be actually clear about what they want it to be. They keep rattling on about why they want it, but not much thought seems to be given how they want it to appear.

So many times when I bring up how harassment can happen from players wearing revealing gear when it isn't their choice, I'm simply told "that's unlikely!" and then no comment made about the compromise to have glam removal default to modest clothing. Just told about how "this feature shouldn't be forbidden because of an unlikely event" even though I literally explained a scenario that would allow the feature AND reduce the chances of clothing based harassment.

It frankly gives the impression that they're so caught up in removing glams that they don't care about the ramifications that option could have if it is not introduced with care, and that when anyone points out to any potential problems they obviously must be completely against it in any form even if they suggest a way to do it.

I am unfortunate enough to know the sort of things that can happen when players do not have much control over the gear they wear. I have seen ugly situations and experienced some of them myself. I thought I left that crap behind when transmog/glam came to WoW, but here I am thinking about it again because some people want to remove glams but refuse to think about how such a thing could affect someone else if it is introduced in certain ways.

If glam removal comes to the game, and the gear simply gets defaulted to racial, AF or unglammed combat gear I'll definitely be spending a lot less time in cities. If players who use glam removal, that default to the aforementioned gear, have a visual tag to inform others they unglammed (like others suggested, not me) you can bet your life I would be standing as far away from them as possible. I'm not going to allow myself to have some creep ogle at what unglamming revealed if I can prevent it.

I just want players to be safe from harassment that can come from a lack of control over how their characters appear. Why is this such a bad thing?

If someone is intent on harassing anyone then they are going to do it whether there's certain features or not. If they were really that interested wanting to humiliate you by dressing down your character then they already have the means to do so through mods. At least an official option could, as many have pointed out, place your character in modest gear and disable or shorten your characters name to their initials.

[Packetdancer]

I mean... I'm gonna keep playing and enjoying the game even if this never gets implemented as are I believe 999 out of 1000 of the rest of the supporters.

Oh, don't misunderstand; my "equilibrium of misery" comment was half for the imagery, and wholly in relation to people's level of satisfaction with the way this thread is going, not the game overall.

[Iscah]

1) I do understand that is a fear, and I have ran into people that got upset over something I have said about their character, but boils for me why should only one side have the power to control over things that they feel are part of their extensive--it terms of personal beliefs or what have you.

The thing is, only one side can have the overriding power to control things. Currently that is the player, who has control of how their character is presented. If you give that power to the viewer instead, the player no longer has that control (except as a "viewer" of their own character).

Many of the posts have blurred together have have anyone for the idea said that they strictly want to able to put people in "reveling" clothing?

Nobody has said they want to use it for this purpose (and I doubt they'd admit to it if they did) - rather, it's a concern from those of us who don't want it.

Disabling glamours to reveal the underlying gear would almost always put my character in a more revealing outfit than what I've chosen to wear. So would reverting to artifact gear, which usually puts female mages in miniskirts.

I don't want my character seen wearing that. I've picked glamours to avoid it, and I don't want anyone turning it off because they don't like some other people's glamour.

More generally speaking, there would certainly be a risk of people doing it deliberately to harass others - whether it was a global setting or whether they could "blacklist" someone for the specific purpose of turning off their glamour and replacing it with the underlying revealing gear.

(And yes, I'm sure it can already be done with mods - but it's against the rules and not something they can do openly with tools handed to them by the creators of the game.)

Several of the (many) suggested implementations of glamour removal have involved replacing the character with the default character for their race/background/gender combination. I.e., instead of seeing my character in-game, you would see the default female Highlander character. In several cases—again, see my character—this would be literal whitewashing, and that may be where the objection is being pulled from.

I think I may have been the first to raise that idea, and I do have to apologise for not thinking of it in terms of whitewashing - but I did intend it as an illustration of just how much I don't want people to be able to change what my character is wearing, and not as a solution. I don't really like the idea either, I just don't-like it less.

[Penthea]

If someone is intent on harassing anyone then they are going to do it whether there's certain features or not. If they were really that interested wanting to humiliate you by dressing down your character then they already have the means to do so through mods. At least an official option could, as many have pointed out, place your character in modest gear and disable or shorten your characters name to their initials.

There is something to be said about making it more difficult to cause harassment. Sure a player could install mods to undress a player but that requires effort. A lot of people wouldn't be bothered based on that alone. Even horrible people can be lazy. However with glam removal it's just a matter of ticking a checkbox in the game menu. For them that would be near instant gratification.

It is not a bad thing it does suck

It was not my intention to ever come off if I did as someone that makes it feel like it is wrong to combat harassment

I did ask a simular question many pages ago but things get blurred, that if people would be annoyed if the option made it so everyone was in say a [insert whatever disred gear here] and said feature also enabled the first letter of the character name would they be against it? Since at that point it would be harder to pin down, not impossile I am sure. More so was wondering if that would be a large enough disconnect between one self and the character that point where one would feel more comfortable.

I think for some people, as long as their character cannot be grossly misrepresented in a way that could result in something negative coming their way, they could tolerate an unglam feature. Certainly that's how it is for me.

I can't speak for everyone though. There are people out there who would refuse absolutely any change being made to their character's appearance by another player regardless of the methods and circumstances.

This is very difficult to pare down when the conversation keeps getting derailed to how immoral and bigoted the supporters are. Not an accusation against you personally but an observation of the patterns in this thread.

This is why I keep repeating myself with my "I would be able to tolerate unglamming if it put players in modest gear due to concerns over harassment that can occur from revealing skin you normally would not be able to see" because with how the forums are designed posts inevitably get lost. I want to maintain the clarity of my position, hence the constant repetition of this statement.

As for bigotry. I don't believe that wanting unglamming is bigotry, because often the reason can simply be not wanting to see distracting outlandish glams like pig suits, namazu heads, chocobo heads and so on.

However at least one person admitted that they want glam removal so they don't have to see men in dresses. Not liking to see that sort of thing isn't bigotry, but it is my opinion that advocating for their removal is. Even if the removal is only client side the sentiment behind the want for this isn't any different.

There is a gigantic difference between not wanting to see things like a metallic gold pig suit, and wanting players around you to conform to gender roles. The first is about wanting to preserve the seriousness of the main story by having appropriate outfits, the latter is about wanting to erase traces of people of a certain social class that exist in the real world. Again I point out that there is nothing lore breaking about a person wearing a dress.

Why does the distinction matter? Well it's because they think a dress is fine on one specific type of person, but not another. Whereas those who want to remove things like a pig suit want it gone regardless of who is wearing it. The first wants to target people they think are wearing a glam only someone else should be able to wear, the other wants to target the outfit itself and don't care who is wearing it.

In short: I'm okay with the idea of wanting to not see a certain outfit, I'm not okay with gatekeeping who has a right to wear a certain outfit. I hope I made the difference between the two clear.

I have tried to solidify some sort of at least compromise and so far have come to the solution that at best it would automatically use set (modest) gear for each class/job (possibly tiered like squadron base gear) and randomized customization values but keep race and sex. That way all game mechanical information would be preserved while anonymizing the character and preserving "modesty". Also it'd have to be an all besides player and NPC toggle so as to not single out any particular player AND maybe add on a hard lock to first initial names or party numbers displayed only , NOT full names so as to keep with anonymity for screen shots.

It makes me glad that you are of a similar opinion as to how unglamming should be done, and that it shouldn't be a simple thoughtless toggle off button.

I know some people would really hate appearing as an entirely different character (referring to randomised customation values and name anonymity) but I would personally prefer this than risking having a character that clearly looks like mine being misrepresented due to the gear unglamming revealed. Especially if the alternative is to have my character appear in potentially skimpy clothing.

[Joven]

There is something to be said about making it more difficult to cause harassment. Sure a player could install mods to undress a player but that requires effort. A lot of people wouldn't be bothered based on that alone. Even horrible people can be lazy. However with glam removal it's just a matter of ticking a checkbox in the game menu. For them that would be near instant gratification.

As stated, several times, the feature could put your character in modest gear. It's hard to be revealing in full plate or robes. Also, if someone harasses you for your glam, or lack there of, then block, report and move on with your life.

[Awha]

The thing is, only one side can have the overriding power to control things. Currently that is the player, who has control of how their character is presented. If you give that power to the viewer instead, the player no longer has that control (except as a "viewer" of their own character).




Nobody has said they want to use it for this purpose (and I doubt they'd admit to it if they did) - rather, it's a concern from those of us who don't want it.

Disabling glamours to reveal the underlying gear would almost always put my character in a more revealing outfit than what I've chosen to wear. So would reverting to artifact gear, which usually puts female mages in miniskirts.

I don't want my character seen wearing that. I've picked glamours to avoid it, and I don't want anyone turning it off because they don't like some other people's glamour.

More generally speaking, there would certainly be a risk of people doing it deliberately to harass others - whether it was a global setting or whether they could "blacklist" someone for the specific purpose of turning off their glamour and replacing it with the underlying revealing gear.

(And yes, I'm sure it can already be done with mods - but it's against the rules and not something they can do openly with tools handed to them by the creators of the game.)





I think I may have been the first to raise that idea, and I do have to apologise for not thinking of it in terms of whitewashing - but I did intend it as an illustration of just how much I don't want people to be able to change what my character is wearing, and not as a solution. I don't really like the idea either, I just don't-like it less.

First point I was more so speaking from control not in the sense of the character per-se more so in the sense of why does not side has the right to infringe sense of belief or ideology. Even then going off what you said, it would still require all parties to have the same sense of where the line is drawn. Not a 100% certain how to word it, but no one is revoking the power from the player, only way that power is lost is if one makes the assumption they are using the feature. I get it would be an unknown variable outside of strict set of sitations that probably would not be very common.

I do agree overall overall if the feature was added, SE would not go down the route of being able to remove glams per-se, I do think they would go down the putting characters in a pre set gear, but that is an issue regarding implementation and can be solved through discourse. In the end I do get a the opton has risks, but at the very least for me personally those risks do not outweigh providing players more agency over what they view impacts their overall personal experience with the game. Just as harrassment might be an issue, we cannot deny it might lead to better community overall because instead of someone feeling their only option is to leave or confront the person they could just toggle the option on. Who knows maybe it would even lead pepple to interact with people they would not have because of what they were wearing or looked like.

The option has many if's regarding ramifications, be it positive, negative, or neutral depedning on ones stance and perspective. In the end I do think a compromise could be reached it but would require both sides to limit their scope to a degree, and be more flexible.

I am for putting everyone is thick robes, barely any skin if any shown. I get how that may annoy people due to whatever reason be it immersion or peronal beliefs. Though I am more for the idea to provide more player choice in how they experience and view the game. I would not use it, unless they allowed me to put everyone in a frog suit, then I would but that is just my personl taste.

<3 my Frog suit, or my mask with the butler outfit.

[Packetdancer]

At least an official option could, as many have pointed out, place your character in modest gear and disable or shorten your characters name to their initials.

I mean, honestly, if I don't get to pick my clothing—whether it's revealing or not—just give me pants. Or, you know, at the very least ensure I'm not wearing basically a tunic and the YoRHa legs so that it looks like I'm walking around in my underwear.

I will still be mildly exasperated, because personal reactions are a thing and I swear by the old gods and the new that I am so so freaking tired of people in the real world trying to dictate that their tastes should get input on what I wear; whether or not I would ever know that someone's using the feature on me in game, the knowledge that people felt they needed to be able to is still just going to inspire a sort of "oh, good grief, really? Here too?" reflexive response.

But between mild exasperation and the "oh HELL no" of replacing characters with the racial defaults lies a considerable degree of difference in vehemence.

I don't even think changing the character appearance is necessary as long as the gear errs on the side of not being, y'know, underwear; the concern people seemed to have earlier in the thread which inspired the idea of changing the character was the possibility of, for instance, having people examine you, see that though you are glammed to appear to be in plate mail you're actually wearing the Shisui fending set, and then adding you to their glam blacklist to effectively visually 'strip you down'. Which, yes, maybe you never know that, but there's still an uncomfortable element to that for anyone who's a woman; it's giving someone the equivalent of the cartoonish 'x-ray specs' that just remove someone's clothing.

(And if you think that would not happen—and moreover, that the guy would not necessarily make a leering quip about it in party chat—then I fear you either have never been a woman on the internet, or have been decidedly more lucky than many. It is not wholly without past experience that the idea of being stripped down to revealing clothing—even just in virtual form—feels a little bit "yuueeech" to some people.)

If you remove that possibility, I think you remove the majority of people's discomfort with it.

I mean, the simple implementation I suggested some time ago was a global toggle in the character preferences, a single checkbox that disables glam and puts everyone in a job-specific pre-defined set of reasonably modest gear. You can figure out what the dominant color of their outfit is—it's a reasonably easy calculation to make—and even dye the gear appropriately.

Then you have no immersion problems; every tank is wearing plate, every mage is wearing magelike robes (and hopefully not just the cleric's culottes or something similar with a shorter top), and so on. No one -- men or women -- will be in wedding dresses out in the world, or moogle heads, or any Mog Station gear.

(Heck, you could even enforce that glamour is on during wedding ceremonies, to ensure people can still dress up for those.)

Literally all of that functionality can be done client-side, with no changes to a server. No excess conditionals to slow down the main runloop of the game. Admittedly, it would probably be more efficient if even the player themselves were restricted from using glam, just because I half-suspect the appropriate part of the game code to change doesn't know a given object represents 'you'—or more specifically that glamour isn't handled at what I'd consider the 'correct' layer of the game's architecture—but that's just a wild guess based on all the talk of various spaghetti code limitations.

Unfortunately, at the time I proposed that previously, I seem to recall it fell flat; no one responded to it and everyone kept speaking about personalized blacklists and talking about the implications of just removing the glamoured appearances. I am glad that if I wandered back into the thread, it's at least to see other suggestions along the same lines now.

Anyway. I meant to not continue feeding the fires here, and then I accidentally tapped in on mobile browser earlier and ended up reading and now I seem to be engaged again, so perhaps I should make another attempt to exit. For the sake of everyone's sanity (or at least, my word count on these forums).

...we don't get a half-hour penalty of not posting after bailing on threads three times, right?