Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Mahrze]

But monk was never shafted this expac....

Please explain how monk was "shafted" in Shadowbringers.

MNK like others have pointed out. MNK as a job hasn't seen much change since 2.0. And the changes in 5.05 weren't as bad, being all QoL changes to remove downtime for a job that has the worst ramp-up time to start doing their ideal damage. Mantra is so contentious now when for a good portion of previous expacs it never even saw the light of day.

It's better for them to buff other jobs than to gut MNK. MNK is still the same as its always been. Only times MNK "shines" is when they remove the downtime tax that Greased Lightning imposes on MNK.


Its a game of numbers now, and likely always will be. Even if you bring in line all the jobs to be 200~ points between each "role" (Melee, PhysR and Caster) people will always find a META and people will always be excluded and these topics will likely never end.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Also, regarding not getting RoE off. That was not my point. The point was that it needed planning to actually benefit from it fully, sure you could get it off, but why get it off for the 1st AoE when you'd still be able to hit positionals and then not have it for the 2nd AoE when positionals are much harder to get to?

I mean anyone who's good at their job should be planning regardless. Monk just needs less.

ROE has a really short cooldown for what it provides, and can almost be upkept the entire fight, so I still don't agree here.

It's not Battle Littany where you can only use it maybe once or twice a fight, Riddle can be used at least 3-4 times a trial fight, easily, which makes covering any missed positionals child's play when you also have the two charges of North Star that are on small cooldowns as well.

I'm sorry but I may not main monk for savage content but positionals are a moot point to me in ShB. Especially with RoE not requiring a stance change. IT's a fire and forget easy button to ignore half of the "detriment" to the kit. If directionals were harder and greased lightning was harder to upkeep and you couldn't have everyone generate chakra for you? Sure I could understand the payoff. But right now you're saying this one thing that is only a problem maybe a TINY percent of a fight is the reason they should compete with a selfish dps and still retain their utility. I just won't be down with that lol

[Akiudo]

If you checked my first post. You'd see that MNK isn't overtuned though, it is 2nd in E1s, 2nd in E2s and 1st on E3S and E4S. Simply because the positional requirements are removed for parts of the fights. E2S is literally full uptime and MNK is still 2nd to BLM. If the Job was so overtuned it would be top in every fight would it not?

to be fair, while i personally think the only thing "overtuned" with monk is mantra, and i really would prefer giving something like this to the other melees instead of holding it against monk, citing being only top dps in 2 out of 4 fights and second place in the other two as proof of balance is kinda "meh".

Stil though, someone has to be top dps, and barring the before mentioned mantra i really don't see why this someone should be any other class anymore than monk, balance is not inheritely broken because monk is at the top, but because discrepancies between classes as a whole

[Tobias_Azuryon]

MNK like others have pointed out. MNK as a job hasn't seen much change since 2.0. And the changes in 5.05 weren't as bad, being all QoL changes to remove downtime for a job that has the worst ramp-up time to start doing their ideal damage. Mantra is so contentious now when for a good portion of previous expacs it never even saw the light of day.


It's better for them to buff other jobs than to gut MNK. MNK is still the same as its always been. Only times MKN "shines" is when they remove the downtime tax that Greased Lightning imposes on MNK.

If we were talking about any other class I'd agree, but buffing everything to match Monk would trivialize any sense of "balance" in the dps. We have in this very thread people saying NIN should be below Summoner and down lower just because of TA and yet Monk's utility and kit allows it to compete with the top ranking dps with an easy combo.

I'm not saying Monk needs to get a nerf hammer, but its potencies need to be reduced, and then the lower ranking needs to be brought up to match this new balance.

Monk doesn't need to get knocked to the bottom, but the answer to "my class is OP" shouldn't in my eyes be "everything else should be too." It makes the game even worse imo.

That being said I imagine everyone would be happy if everyone just did the same damage as a BLM, but in my eyes I see that making the game even more braindead and moving in the wrong direction. The balance as there is in the game currently just needing tweaking. With Monk being one of the biggest offenders in Melee DPS, and then looking at the ranged dps and their role and how to bring back support.

[Shurrikhan]

This was the reason I made the comment in the other thread that the role system has to evolve.

We're slowly losing differentiating mechanical boons and boiling down to only damage, and while that's sort of always been the mentality (that has likely lead to this development), I think the train needs to turn around.

We need more pronounced and celebrated differences, but we can have them in a role system designed for it. I think we can borrow Paradigms from FF13 for this and use them to great effect.

Commando - A role that focuses on creating advantages for SKill Chains / Spell Burst (Effectively Team combos)

Ravager - A role that exploits openings and buffs provided by others. (Pretty obvious who goes here)

Saboteur - A role that debilitates enemies and opens up exploit windows.

Synergist - A role that boosts the party.

By expanding from 3 roles to 4, we create more incentive to bring one of each. By celebrating role specific synergy, we create more incentives to bring one of each, but not necessarily punish having more than one.

If we go by XIII's naming, weren't Commando and Ravager reversed? Ravager more quickly built stagger, while Commando had more damage per stat point and therefore better exploited Stagger (while also maintaining whatever Stagger had been pushed thus far, though that was only important outside of chained attacks via Overwhelm). I say this only because if you look at the original XIV classes, they actually dipped noticeably into these roles, easy enough to point out what was what even while no job was ever limited to just one at a time.

Lancer, for instance, was your speed-tank because it could generate openers for building up attacks, its sabotage kept enemy damage manageable (by pushing back the timers until mobs could use specials) and kept the party alive when rotating aggro via raid-wide Lifesteal buffs against the target, and it had self-buffs to capitalize on damage (which shared recast timers with the raid buff), etc., etc. Heck, Pugilist was a unique little odd-ball, roughly a Ravager/Commando, but with tricks like Taunt to exploit its versatility and aid Gladiator/Marauder interplay (whereby Gladiator could most easily shirk enmity and had the most reward from tag-teaming in or out of MTing, but was slower to generate enmity). Until the 1.2 changes, quite a few parts of their gameplay felt like interlocking puzzle pieces, but that wasn't because they were each one role; quite the opposite -- it was because of the peculiarities of how they performed each part, and what and how deeply they went into each role.

Here, ideally, I see Monk as having the most play in (XIII-style) Ravager, especially under Fists of Wind, but very decent Commando play available to it, and with some Synergist output via shared resources (think "Light/Dark Chakra" skills) with a hint or Saboteur then further sharing resources with those.

But even then, I don't think these roles need or even should be followed exactly for every job: BLM could be roughly considered a (XIII) Commando, who creates openings by which to allow for damage-chaining and capitalizes upon chained damage, but would technically have very little of that original opening bit and its damage would be less affected by damage-chaining than most Commandos. On the other hand, I'd like for BLM to be capable of a bit of mob-manipulation, as a sort of self-contained Saboteur, through its Ice, Fire, and Lightning effects. So what is it really? You mostly take it in the same context as you'd take a DRG or a SAM, but it'd come with a lot less frontline presence but more backline support, which can at other times make it fill the space of a ranged Saboteur, just trading out some more precise or sustained control to be able to outright kill some mobs more quickly.

Heck, how do we consider NIN? Is Trick Attack Commando (XIII Ravager) or Saboteur?

While the roles are decent metrics by which to line up individual skills or capacities, I don't think they need to, or even ought to, describe jobs as a whole particularly well. DRG should be DRG, not just "a Ravager" (XIII Commando). BLM should be BLM. SMN should be SMN. The problem is already that these things are too same-y. Why replace one form of same-y with another, and one that more requires threshing their abilities (not to streamline them, but --nonetheless-- to fit them to fine typal requirements)?

:: I realize this is all irrelevant for now. XIV has no room for dramatic change until our fights are more than "drain the HP counter from this variably sized cylinder until it's HP reaches zero while you stand where you need to stand and face where you must face without being distracted from draining its HP". Of course, neither will there ever seem any need to make fights more diverse than what we have until there's kits that could make use of such fights... So proceeds the endless cycle of streamlining.

[Raylazer11]

But a person's satisfaction and a Job's overall DPS viability doesn't 100% coincide with one another. Yes I agree MNK old(and current) kit contradicts itself in multiple ways.
With it's current position within all of the DPS it's just crazy and it shouldn't be as high as it is for such a easy and party friendly Job. MNK was badly designed from ARR I agree, though turning a broken Job into a actually BROKEN Job is a huge issue. Since design changes dont usually come to Jobs until the next expac (excluding maybe 1 per expac like NiN upcoming changes) we probably wont get a redesigned MNK until 6.0 so it needs to be nurfed into place for balance.
Nurfing one Job with do alot more good then buffing the other 4-7-10-12 Jobs withing fixing the MNK in the room.

[Mahrze]

If we were talking about any other class I'd agree, but buffing everything to match Monk would trivialize any sense of "balance" in the dps. We have in this very thread people saying NIN should be below Summoner and down lower just because of TA and yet Monk's utility and kit allows it to compete with the top ranking dps with an easy combo.

I'm not saying Monk needs to get a nerf hammer, but its potencies need to be reduced, and then the lower ranking needs to be brought up to match this new balance.

Monk doesn't need to get knocked to the bottom, but the answer to "my class is OP" shouldn't in my eyes be "everything else should be too." It makes the game even worse imo.

That being said I imagine everyone would be happy if everyone just did the same damage as a BLM, but in my eyes I see that making the game even more braindead and moving in the wrong direction. The balance as there is in the game currently just needing tweaking. With Monk being one of the biggest offenders in Melee DPS, and then looking at the ranged dps and their role and how to bring back support.

The thing is, you're asking to penalize a job who's only "buff to make it OP" was cancelling the downtime GL has. Every other gameplay thing MNK has, is matched by other jobs. You're asking for MNK to lose potencies when it lost 5% from its self buff Riddle of Fire when it was also updated to not cause slowdown.

DRG still has Raiden Thrust and works better and has better flow than Leaden Fist. (MNKs Equivalent)
NIN, DRG and SAM all have better rotation flow overall and self buff maint than MNK.

MNK is not shining by some magical move of a wand with 5.05. MNK is doing the damage they expected it to do. Hence why the issue lies in other jobs being taxed worse than they have been in the past. You can change and nerf MNK potencies and adjust it however you want. But when I see people justify DRG being above MNK when Battle Litany > Brotherhood is downright absurd. Even more so when people suggest MNK and NIN should be in the same lvl when TA > Brotherhood too.

But a person's satisfaction and a Job's overall DPS viability doesn't 100% coincide with one another. Yes I agree MNK old(and current) kit contradicts itself in multiple ways.
With it's current position within all of the DPS it's just crazy and it shouldn't be as high as it is for such a easy and party friendly Job. MNK was badly designed from ARR I agree, though turning a broken Job into a actually BROKEN Job is a huge issue. Since design changes dont usually come to Jobs until the next expac (excluding maybe 1 per expac like NiN upcoming changes) we probably wont get a redesigned MNK until 6.0 so it needs to be nurfed into place for balance.
Nurfing one Job with do alot more good then buffing the other 4-7-10-12 Jobs withing fixing the MNK in the room.

But nerfing MNK even to NIN lvls won't fix MCH, BRD, SMN, RDM, SAM and any other that needs to be higher or be a meme. Its not going to change any balance because the DPS contribution discrepancy is huge between Melee and Ranged/SMN/RDM.

[Shurrikhan]

If you checked my first post. You'd see that MNK isn't overtuned though, it is 2nd in E1s, 2nd in E2s and 1st on E3S and E4S. Simply because the positional requirements are removed for parts of the fights. E2S is literally full uptime and MNK is still 2nd to BLM. If the Job was so overtuned it would be top in every fight would it not? If MNK is overtuned then BLM is also overtuned, and DRG... It's strong but it's not in need of the so-called hard nerfs your clamoring for.

Also, regarding not getting RoE off. That was not my point. The point was that it needed planning to actually benefit from it fully, sure you could get it off, but why get it off for the 1st AoE when you'd still be able to hit positionals and then not have it for the 2nd AoE when positionals are much harder to get to? was my point. Both are more flexible yes, but do they really deserve to be 1500~ dps behind BLM? The RDM in my static can't do the tether in E3S because there is not enough time to cast > insta cast/move. Whereas a BLM can triple cast, swift cast and do the entire thing seamlessly. BLM has on demand movement every 30s and every 60s. On top of that, they have random procs for movement which further enhances their movement, on top of teleporting. Xenoglossy is also instant. You underestimate just how much movement a BLM has now. As I stated, this archaic thinking regarding BLM being a turret is so old. It's got so much on demand movement for most mechanics that it loses so little compared to SMN which has to save Ruin IVs for both weaving AND movement, and RDM requires a cast before the instant cast or reprisel is a DPS loss.

"Overtuned" =/= top place.
"Overtuned" = having a significant rDPS (that is to say pDPS + indirect contribution given - indirect contribution used from others, i.e. the total damage contribution a job brings to a raid) lead over most of the roster even when those trailing provide no compensatory attractors.

Which, Monk does. Of course, so does BLM, and at present even DRG, SAM, and NIN. And one of our jobs will be picked as the new target goal for balance. We can say, despite the game being balanceable around any job, that Monk is likely overtuned because if everyone was brought up to Monk's level, content would, in fact, get significantly easier in its dps checks when going from a current "meta" party to a newly-balanced "non-meta" party.

[Kabooa]

If we go by XIII's naming, weren't Commando and Ravager reversed?

It's been.

Ohgodit'sbeen10years.

So my memory might be a little off - I recall Commandos being how you kept stagger from falling and Ravagers how you pushed it, but I also wasn't a master of the system.

That said, naming convention aside (Commando doesn't really fit FF14, Ravager less likely too), we aim for four distinct roles to which divide our playstyles (Jobs). In this manner, one job of each of our current roles could fit into one of these new roles.

In an ideal world, each Job could shift its paradigm and gain different traits to fit their party (A "Nuker" Black Mage has Xenoglossy, a "Commando" Black Mage has a polyglot spender to enhance a following Skill Chain / Spellburst), but in our slightly more grounded fantasy, it'd much easier to just slide each job into one and design it accordingly.

That said, we can also just shove Machinist, Samurai, and Black Mage into their own category for FF14's system ("Cannons") and make the fullsuite attribute bonus stronger.
(Instead of 1% per, it's 1% per and +4% for a full house. Easy street)

[Shurrikhan]

But a person's satisfaction and a Job's overall DPS viability doesn't 100% coincide with one another. Yes I agree MNK old(and current) kit contradicts itself in multiple ways.
With it's current position within all of the DPS it's just crazy and it shouldn't be as high as it is for such a easy and party friendly Job. MNK was badly designed from ARR I agree, though turning a broken Job into a actually BROKEN Job is a huge issue. Since design changes dont usually come to Jobs until the next expac (excluding maybe 1 per expac like NiN upcoming changes) we probably wont get a redesigned MNK until 6.0 so it needs to be nurfed into place for balance.
Nurfing one Job with do alot more good then buffing the other 4-7-10-12 Jobs withing fixing the MNK in the room.

No one's saying that satisfaction levels = dps viability. After all, people can dislike jobs that play like grating gears even if they're the highest performer in the game.

Just as, say, I can want to see Monk's gameplay improved and its rDPS brought down to balance.