Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Raylazer11]

As for Mantra, it's because the devs panic buffed it's range along with the other changes they made to Monk in a mad attempt at placating the players of the Job they'd just shafted for the third expansion in a row.

But monk was never shafted this expac....

Please explain how monk was "shafted" in Shadowbringers.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

First off, Monk can really ignore all directional requirements with the changes to Riddle of Earth and two charges of North Star. You'll probably have a 10 second window tops where directionals are involved due to every trial and raid having Groupwide AOE. North star, Riddle of Earth having almost 30 seconds to be triggerd, then second charge of North star makes the conversation of "Directionals" completely pointless in this expansion.

I have to wonder if you actually play MNK? You realise RoE requires a hit to be proc'd right? You don't just instantly get 30s free positionals. In E1S you have to pick where you actually want to RoE because some parts are better than others. But that doesn't mean positionals are meaningless, there can be times where you're waiting for RoE to proc, but can't hit positionals (E2s) so you have to also use True North just so you don't miss out on the 150 extra crit potency from bootshine. You're examples are very simplified, but it really doesn't play out that way in a fight. The last phase of Titan is the exception. Even E2S needs planning when to use RoE to make the most of it. Just because you can have it sometimes doesn't make it worth it if you'd be able to hit positionals regardless.

This would make sense if there wasn't already an objectively better kit on Monk than SAM

Hence buff SAM... at max it needs a 2%-3% increase. It doesn't need much. Also, easy upkeep of buffs but ignoring SAM having 40s buffs?? Selfish DPS should be higher, i agree, MCH and SAM are the outliers here. BUT, they should not be higher when looking at FFLOGs because that takes into account rDPS and is how the jobs are ranked.

I am fine with BLM being the best because they have Cast times, which can be interrupted, they have to move, interrupting cast time, they have to stay stationary to cast, etc. SAM should be below BLM so that BLM doesn't become useless and also because they can instant cast and their big downfall is moving out of aoes or away from the boss. There's more to the kits than just going "This does more damage so everyone will take it" without looking at their kits.

You include cast times being a problem for BLM but discount positionals being on every GCD for MNK? Or just the fact that Melee have to clench their asses to get their extra GCDs in not to miss out on uptime? This archaic thinking for BLM is why it's so overpowered compared to the other casters. BLM has the best on demand movement at minimal potency lost compared to every other caster. BLM hasn't had problems with movement since Stormblood, saying it has to stay casting is the same as saying 'Monk, (or just melee in general) have to do positionals, and yes, before you start spouting about "free positionals on MNK" I already mentioned you are using perfect scenarios in your arguement which simply doesn't happen in a fight.

We're 8 weeks into Savage, there's really no point not to buff the undertuned jobs. It's not like buffing them will break the game, the content has been downed already.

[Kabooa]

But monk was never shafted this expac....

Please explain how monk was "shafted" in Shadowbringers.

Except for a brief stint in Stormblood, Monk has basically not changed since ARR.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

snip

Aside from maybe Raids I've never seen any situation where I couldn't get Riddle off in Trials or boss fights because almost everything post HW has a group wide AOE that hits everyone. In fact I can't really think of a trial where there isn't an attack that hits everyone that anyone with a focus target or enemy list can see coming from a mile away and time right.

I am constantly on Riddle of Earth, between North Star charges, and aside from savage content have never seen any content that makes me have to stress about positionals and/or worry about my damage.

If we use Savage specifically yeah we can say that "maybe you won't use Riddle of Earth in time" but if you can't get Riddle of Earth off before an AOE in trials and stuff that doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, positional aren't hard to upkeep

You say "perfect scenarios" but any tank with half a brain(which is admitedly rare sometimes depending on server) knows how to position a boss making it even easier to do. I've never had a problem because the majority of content after HW is practically on timers that it's easy to just pop, and due to how long the window is for RoE it's not even punishing to throw up.

The game takes these things into account. Unless you're REALLY bad things like Interject, RoE, North Star, Trick Attack, etc are all timed in ways that they overlap with other mechanics and other skills. 9 times out of 10 if you have Riddle of Earth going it will proc easily before it ends, and unless you're doing savage you should be able to manage your positionals without fail even without north star charges.

If "barely moving to the side to get a hit off" without north star is a way we're going to balance classes than classes like MCH should be nerfed then yeah? You can keep saying "but positionals" but positionals are literally not a problem when I play monk. Sorry.

EDIT: This again takes into account that their kit is extremely easy to play, which compared to NIN makes it even more baffling how they thought making the gimped melee DPS class a pain to play made sense in the balance.

[Shurrikhan]

But monk was never shafted this expac....

Please explain how monk was "shafted" in Shadowbringers.

Gutted gameplay.

Sometimes I wonder if some people would "enjoy" a one-button job so long as it gave high enough rDPS...

Except for a brief stint in Stormblood, Monk has basically not changed since ARR.

That's only true if you consider the double-Boot (Demo-drop) rotation as being a prevalent part of ARR. For most Monks, it wasn't really used until HW, when the Demolish timer was briefly increased, and it brought in very distinct rotational possibilities. And while HW didn't change perfect uptime Monk play much (outside of the above high-SkS rotations better opened up), it certainly changed short-burst play and gave Monk what was then the strongest melee-downtime skill (alike to Piercing Talon or Throwing Daggers) in the game, essentially compensating for its weaknesses in fitting and interesting ways. Late Stormblood just then took all these previously fun but situational skills and decided to make more compelling gameplay out of them that would apply even in dummy fights. Then, Stormblood sent us back to HW, but 3 oGCDs shorter.

Saying Monk hasn't changed is kind of like saying BLM hasn't changed, since it's still a job that likes turreting. It's just that in this case we got the added mobility and timeable burst of Ley Lines, Between the Lines, and Foul, and then... had it mostly all removed again, replacing the "turret" aspect with 40 seconds per minute of "Hey, you can now cast while moving! No more iconic skill-gap limitations holding you back!"

[Raylazer11]

We're 8 weeks into Savage, there's really no point not to buff the undertuned jobs. It's not like buffing them will break the game, the content has been downed already.

But MNK IS over-tuned to a insane degree. even if positional mitigation doesn't come into perfect effect, like you describe, the ease of play along with the party utility with brotherhood (which also boost your own dps ten fold because chakra stacks generation on top of that 5% buff) the Job itself is still way overpowered and needs to be knocked down a few pegs.
Buffing Jobs that do less damage wont fix the issue MNK has already created.

This archaic thinking for BLM is why it's so overpowered compared to the other casters. BLM has the best on demand movement at minimal potency lost compared to every other caster. BLM hasn't had problems with movement since Stormblood

Also the other casters have res and can freely move more often then a BLM does. BLM still have to stay still to achieve max DPS. They tele back and forth which helps them get out of trouble yes. Other then that they shouldn't be moving because movement still cost DPS for them.
SUM have 2 castable spells (without counting res) so they only have to stay put for a fraction compared to BLM.
RED has dual cast that helps with literally anything they do. Cast > move > cast insta. Cast > move > insta res
Both are way more flexible then BLM tele back and forth.
Again referring back to the site that shall not be named. The difference between a good/bad BLM and a good/bad MNK is huge. Half of all monks are just better then 50% of BLM both in RDPS and ADPS.

Please continue to try and change my mind.

[SpeckledBurd]

But monk was never shafted this expac....

Please explain how monk was "shafted" in Shadowbringers.

Sure, though I'll simplify it rather than writing my standard wall of text. People hated Stormblood's iteration of Monk because it was a version of Monk that had a ton of redundant and Niche skills for Greased Lightning Management whereas other jobs could literally hit a button to refresh their Buff (Black Mage with Transpose upkeeping Enochian, Dragoon with Blood of the Dragon), they hated that Riddle of Fire had a slow that felt contradictory to everything the job stood for, they hated that Monk had lost skills it used rotationally and had never gotten anything new to use, at best it just got replacements at the top end, people hated the multilayered RNG of Deep Meditation or the single layer RNG of Brotherhood along with many more complaints.

The devs said they'd taken our feedback and we were cautiously optimistic. As I recall they even mentioned something about reworking the job at some point in the year before Shadowbringers, then we saw Shadowbringers launch and we realized the devs had actually taken none of our feedback, they'd basically fixed none of the substantial problems we had with the job in stormblood, and in many cases actually designed new actions and traits around things we'd been loudly professing to hate for the last two years. Riddle of Fire still slowed, two of our new skills were redundant Greased Lightning Upkeep Skills while our old ones were still garbage (Anatman and Six Sided Star), they actually leaned into the multilayered RNG of the job instead of getting rid of it, they even managed to make Greased Lightning 4 have a problem by tying it to the Fist Stances and compounding the problem they've had forever where there's a single fist stance that increases your DPS the most so you just sit in it forever. The same problem Tackle Mastery had, but this time it was two traits because we got Enhanced Fists of Fire and Riddle of Wind as Fist Stance traits. No one was happy, players who didn't like Tornado Kick Monk had a water thin version of the job they liked from Heavensward and the players who liked Tornado Kick Monk had the same thing but had also lost the playstyle they'd come to like.

People have forgotten that this was what Job satisfaction looked like right at Launch:

Key: Red/Pink is satisfaction, Yellow is neutral, Blue is dissatisfaction.

Monk's hated Shadowbringers Monk on launch. They hated it more than they hated Stormblood Monk which the devs had been forced to admit, repeatedly on Stream, was unpopular and a bad direction for a job. It was an abysmal experience to play and level. 4.05 in a lot of ways feels like it was a panicked response to the sheer negative outcry against the job, and now it's a slightly less abysmal experience that performs really highly but still has many of the same problems from Stormblood.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

But MNK IS over-tuned to a insane degree. even if positional mitigation doesn't come into perfect effect like you describe the ease of play along with the party utility with brotherhood (which also boost your own dps ten fold because chakra stacks generation on top of that 5% buff) the Job itself is still way overpowered and needs to be knocked down a few pegs.
Buffing Jobs that do less damage wont fix the issue MNK has already created.



Also the other casters have res and can freely move more often then a BLM should to achieve max DPS. They tele back and forth. other then that they shouldn't be moving because movement still cost DPS for them.
SUM have 2 castable spells (without counting res) so they only have to stay put for alittle bit compared to BLM.
RED has dual cast that helps with literally anything they do. Cast > move > cast insta. Cast > move > insta res
Both are way more flexible then BLM tele back and forth.
Again referring back to the site that shall not be named. The difference between a good/bad BLM and a good/bad MNK is huge. Half of all monks are just better then 50% of BLM both in RDPS and ADPS.

Please continue to try and change my mind.

If you checked my first post. You'd see that MNK isn't overtuned though, it is 2nd in E1s, 2nd in E2s and 1st on E3S and E4S. Simply because the positional requirements are removed for parts of the fights. E2S is literally full uptime and MNK is still 2nd to BLM. If the Job was so overtuned it would be top in every fight would it not? If MNK is overtuned then BLM is also overtuned, and DRG... It's strong but it's not in need of the so-called hard nerfs your clamoring for.

Also, regarding not getting RoE off. That was not my point. The point was that it needed planning to actually benefit from it fully, sure you could get it off, but why get it off for the 1st AoE when you'd still be able to hit positionals and then not have it for the 2nd AoE when positionals are much harder to get to? was my point. Both are more flexible yes, but do they really deserve to be 1500~ dps behind BLM? The RDM in my static can't do the tether in E3S because there is not enough time to cast > insta cast/move. Whereas a BLM can triple cast, swift cast and do the entire thing seamlessly. BLM has on demand movement every 30s and every 60s. On top of that, they have random procs for movement which further enhances their movement, on top of teleporting. Xenoglossy is also instant. You underestimate just how much movement a BLM has now. As I stated, this archaic thinking regarding BLM being a turret is so old. It's got so much on demand movement for most mechanics that it loses so little compared to SMN which has to save Ruin IVs for both weaving AND movement, and RDM requires a cast before the instant cast or reprisel is a DPS loss.

[SaitoHikari]

Agreed. The ideal party setup (in my eyes) is

-Main Tank
-Support tank/OT that can either swap or help bolster the main tank
-2 selfish dps
-2 support dps
-2 healers

It's not so clear cut and more often than not balancing spots for 4 classes out of (how many DPS do we have now @_@) is going to be hard, but that's also why people like myself fought for classes like Dancer to be Heals. Having literally everything in the DPS category stifles the designs.

BRD and DNC should be loved for the utility they bring, but in their attempt to break the meta to not "needing" roles like NIN and stuff, we now have just "do all the damage" and that really sucks.

I hope we get more fleshing out of support because right now classes like BRD and DNC are nerfed only to barely be used outside of casual content.

Honestly, I feel like most of the support being gutted was in response to how the community treated party buffs last expansion. When you really look at it, most of it was only because people wanted higher rankings on FFLogs. But now that the site has switched to raid DPS display meaning damage increase from party buffs is shifted from other party members to the caster, half the reason for that behavior is gone now.

The only problematic part about how support worked last expansion was in regards to piercing/slashing/blunt debuffs being a thing, because those absolutely promoted specific and rigid class compositions. There were ranged last expansion that refused to raid without a Dragoon in the party to provide piercing debuff. That's also gone, so that's another big chunk of support imbalance and how it influences player behavior is something we don't need to worry about anymore. The devs could bring back Foe Requiem/crit song aura/Hypercharge/old Astrologian cards/and so on, and things would look a lot more balanced again. We could get new support added in too, which is why I've been advocating for a defensive Warden's Paean rework in recent weeks that would work as a shield/mitigation/mini-excog depending on the active song.

If you checked my first post. You'd see that MNK isn't overtuned though, it is 2nd in E1s, 2nd in E2s and 1st on E3S and E4S. Simply because the positional requirements are removed for parts of the fights. E2S is literally full uptime and MNK is still 2nd to BLM. If the Job was so overtuned it would be top in every fight would it not?

Just because it isn't first in every fight means it's not overtuned? The hell kind of logic is this?

Answer me this: Why is a class with better support than half the classes below them competing with a selfish caster for the top DPS spot, and why does anyone think that is okay?

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Answer me this: Why is a class with better support than half the classes below them competing with a selfish caster for the top DPS spot, and why does anyone think that is okay?

Because they main Monk? I dunno.

Monk definitely needed a rework, it just got hyper charged. It needed something to put it above Ninja before the Ninja rotation got crazy over complicated, so now while Ninja sits in the corner and asks "who am I" Monk is just too OP for its kit and utility. Monk mains WERE supposed to get more in Stormbood but they didn't, and that's definitely on Square.

But like I said, I main MCH, I'd love MCH to do as much as BLM, but I know that would be horrendously unbalanced because I can literally sleep at the keyboard and still do high dps and move and not worry about any positioning.