Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

First off, Monk can really ignore all directional requirements with the changes to Riddle of Earth and two charges of North Star. You'll probably have a 10 second window tops where directionals are involved due to every trial and raid having Groupwide AOE. North star, Riddle of Earth having almost 30 seconds to be triggerd, then second charge of North star makes the conversation of "Directionals" completely pointless in this expansion.

I have to wonder if you actually play MNK? You realise RoE requires a hit to be proc'd right? You don't just instantly get 30s free positionals. In E1S you have to pick where you actually want to RoE because some parts are better than others. But that doesn't mean positionals are meaningless, there can be times where you're waiting for RoE to proc, but can't hit positionals (E2s) so you have to also use True North just so you don't miss out on the 150 extra crit potency from bootshine. You're examples are very simplified, but it really doesn't play out that way in a fight. The last phase of Titan is the exception. Even E2S needs planning when to use RoE to make the most of it. Just because you can have it sometimes doesn't make it worth it if you'd be able to hit positionals regardless.

This would make sense if there wasn't already an objectively better kit on Monk than SAM

Hence buff SAM... at max it needs a 2%-3% increase. It doesn't need much. Also, easy upkeep of buffs but ignoring SAM having 40s buffs?? Selfish DPS should be higher, i agree, MCH and SAM are the outliers here. BUT, they should not be higher when looking at FFLOGs because that takes into account rDPS and is how the jobs are ranked.

I am fine with BLM being the best because they have Cast times, which can be interrupted, they have to move, interrupting cast time, they have to stay stationary to cast, etc. SAM should be below BLM so that BLM doesn't become useless and also because they can instant cast and their big downfall is moving out of aoes or away from the boss. There's more to the kits than just going "This does more damage so everyone will take it" without looking at their kits.

You include cast times being a problem for BLM but discount positionals being on every GCD for MNK? Or just the fact that Melee have to clench their asses to get their extra GCDs in not to miss out on uptime? This archaic thinking for BLM is why it's so overpowered compared to the other casters. BLM has the best on demand movement at minimal potency lost compared to every other caster. BLM hasn't had problems with movement since Stormblood, saying it has to stay casting is the same as saying 'Monk, (or just melee in general) have to do positionals, and yes, before you start spouting about "free positionals on MNK" I already mentioned you are using perfect scenarios in your arguement which simply doesn't happen in a fight.

We're 8 weeks into Savage, there's really no point not to buff the undertuned jobs. It's not like buffing them will break the game, the content has been downed already.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

snip

Aside from maybe Raids I've never seen any situation where I couldn't get Riddle off in Trials or boss fights because almost everything post HW has a group wide AOE that hits everyone. In fact I can't really think of a trial where there isn't an attack that hits everyone that anyone with a focus target or enemy list can see coming from a mile away and time right.

I am constantly on Riddle of Earth, between North Star charges, and aside from savage content have never seen any content that makes me have to stress about positionals and/or worry about my damage.

If we use Savage specifically yeah we can say that "maybe you won't use Riddle of Earth in time" but if you can't get Riddle of Earth off before an AOE in trials and stuff that doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, positional aren't hard to upkeep

You say "perfect scenarios" but any tank with half a brain(which is admitedly rare sometimes depending on server) knows how to position a boss making it even easier to do. I've never had a problem because the majority of content after HW is practically on timers that it's easy to just pop, and due to how long the window is for RoE it's not even punishing to throw up.

The game takes these things into account. Unless you're REALLY bad things like Interject, RoE, North Star, Trick Attack, etc are all timed in ways that they overlap with other mechanics and other skills. 9 times out of 10 if you have Riddle of Earth going it will proc easily before it ends, and unless you're doing savage you should be able to manage your positionals without fail even without north star charges.

If "barely moving to the side to get a hit off" without north star is a way we're going to balance classes than classes like MCH should be nerfed then yeah? You can keep saying "but positionals" but positionals are literally not a problem when I play monk. Sorry.

EDIT: This again takes into account that their kit is extremely easy to play, which compared to NIN makes it even more baffling how they thought making the gimped melee DPS class a pain to play made sense in the balance.

[Raylazer11]

We're 8 weeks into Savage, there's really no point not to buff the undertuned jobs. It's not like buffing them will break the game, the content has been downed already.

But MNK IS over-tuned to a insane degree. even if positional mitigation doesn't come into perfect effect, like you describe, the ease of play along with the party utility with brotherhood (which also boost your own dps ten fold because chakra stacks generation on top of that 5% buff) the Job itself is still way overpowered and needs to be knocked down a few pegs.
Buffing Jobs that do less damage wont fix the issue MNK has already created.

This archaic thinking for BLM is why it's so overpowered compared to the other casters. BLM has the best on demand movement at minimal potency lost compared to every other caster. BLM hasn't had problems with movement since Stormblood

Also the other casters have res and can freely move more often then a BLM does. BLM still have to stay still to achieve max DPS. They tele back and forth which helps them get out of trouble yes. Other then that they shouldn't be moving because movement still cost DPS for them.
SUM have 2 castable spells (without counting res) so they only have to stay put for a fraction compared to BLM.
RED has dual cast that helps with literally anything they do. Cast > move > cast insta. Cast > move > insta res
Both are way more flexible then BLM tele back and forth.
Again referring back to the site that shall not be named. The difference between a good/bad BLM and a good/bad MNK is huge. Half of all monks are just better then 50% of BLM both in RDPS and ADPS.

Please continue to try and change my mind.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

But MNK IS over-tuned to a insane degree. even if positional mitigation doesn't come into perfect effect like you describe the ease of play along with the party utility with brotherhood (which also boost your own dps ten fold because chakra stacks generation on top of that 5% buff) the Job itself is still way overpowered and needs to be knocked down a few pegs.
Buffing Jobs that do less damage wont fix the issue MNK has already created.



Also the other casters have res and can freely move more often then a BLM should to achieve max DPS. They tele back and forth. other then that they shouldn't be moving because movement still cost DPS for them.
SUM have 2 castable spells (without counting res) so they only have to stay put for alittle bit compared to BLM.
RED has dual cast that helps with literally anything they do. Cast > move > cast insta. Cast > move > insta res
Both are way more flexible then BLM tele back and forth.
Again referring back to the site that shall not be named. The difference between a good/bad BLM and a good/bad MNK is huge. Half of all monks are just better then 50% of BLM both in RDPS and ADPS.

Please continue to try and change my mind.

If you checked my first post. You'd see that MNK isn't overtuned though, it is 2nd in E1s, 2nd in E2s and 1st on E3S and E4S. Simply because the positional requirements are removed for parts of the fights. E2S is literally full uptime and MNK is still 2nd to BLM. If the Job was so overtuned it would be top in every fight would it not? If MNK is overtuned then BLM is also overtuned, and DRG... It's strong but it's not in need of the so-called hard nerfs your clamoring for.

Also, regarding not getting RoE off. That was not my point. The point was that it needed planning to actually benefit from it fully, sure you could get it off, but why get it off for the 1st AoE when you'd still be able to hit positionals and then not have it for the 2nd AoE when positionals are much harder to get to? was my point. Both are more flexible yes, but do they really deserve to be 1500~ dps behind BLM? The RDM in my static can't do the tether in E3S because there is not enough time to cast > insta cast/move. Whereas a BLM can triple cast, swift cast and do the entire thing seamlessly. BLM has on demand movement every 30s and every 60s. On top of that, they have random procs for movement which further enhances their movement, on top of teleporting. Xenoglossy is also instant. You underestimate just how much movement a BLM has now. As I stated, this archaic thinking regarding BLM being a turret is so old. It's got so much on demand movement for most mechanics that it loses so little compared to SMN which has to save Ruin IVs for both weaving AND movement, and RDM requires a cast before the instant cast or reprisel is a DPS loss.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Also, regarding not getting RoE off. That was not my point. The point was that it needed planning to actually benefit from it fully, sure you could get it off, but why get it off for the 1st AoE when you'd still be able to hit positionals and then not have it for the 2nd AoE when positionals are much harder to get to?

I mean anyone who's good at their job should be planning regardless. Monk just needs less.

ROE has a really short cooldown for what it provides, and can almost be upkept the entire fight, so I still don't agree here.

It's not Battle Littany where you can only use it maybe once or twice a fight, Riddle can be used at least 3-4 times a trial fight, easily, which makes covering any missed positionals child's play when you also have the two charges of North Star that are on small cooldowns as well.

I'm sorry but I may not main monk for savage content but positionals are a moot point to me in ShB. Especially with RoE not requiring a stance change. IT's a fire and forget easy button to ignore half of the "detriment" to the kit. If directionals were harder and greased lightning was harder to upkeep and you couldn't have everyone generate chakra for you? Sure I could understand the payoff. But right now you're saying this one thing that is only a problem maybe a TINY percent of a fight is the reason they should compete with a selfish dps and still retain their utility. I just won't be down with that lol

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

I mean anyone who's good at their job should be planning regardless. Monk just needs less.

ROE has a really short cooldown for what it provides, and can almost be upkept the entire fight, so I still don't agree here.

It's not Battle Littany where you can only use it maybe once or twice a fight, Riddle can be used at least 3-4 times a trial fight, easily, which makes covering any missed positionals child's play when you also have the two charges of North Star that are on small cooldowns as well.

I'm sorry but I may not main monk for savage content but positionals are a moot point to me in ShB. Especially with RoE not requiring a stance change. IT's a fire and forget easy button to ignore half of the "detriment" to the kit. If directionals were harder and greased lightning was harder to upkeep and you couldn't have everyone generate chakra for you? Sure I could understand the payoff. But right now you're saying this one thing that is only a problem maybe a TINY percent of a fight is the reason they should compete with a selfish dps and still retain their utility. I just won't be down with that lol

You keep going on about competing with a selfish DPS. What exactly are you looking at? BLM IS the top personal DPS in the game. SAM needs to be buffed up to those levels. But these selfish DPS should not be better when you take into account the raid buffs provided by a MNK. Look on FFLOGs

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

Minus 450-500 to get an idea of MNK's personal damage. It is below a BLM. it's only ahead due to raid contribution.

I'm sorry but everyone talking about buffs will trivialise the content. The content is already done, it's been done since 2 months ago. This may hurt for some people to hear, but if you haven't cleared it by now on whatever job, then the problem is skill. Any composition this late in can clear savage. It's already trivial now because it's outgeared so much. Buff the jobs that need buffing and scale 5.1 content accordingly. Done.
I have to wonder though, what sort of nerf are people wanting from MNK? There will always be a meta comp in this game. But when you have selfish DPS at the top of rDPS and pDPS then they automatically become lock-ins which is what we're seeing with BLM, SAM should have higher pDPS than MNK and at the top 100% of players, it does. But it needs to be higher across all percentiles, and only when factoring in support should MNK, NIN and DRG be ahead. Right now, the caster slot has absolutely no competition. NIN is only 500 away from MNK, DRG is like 300ish and SAM is in the middle. These jobs can all compete for the same slot, because 500dps is not that much at these DPS levels, unlike HW and SB. BLM is 1k ahead of SMN across all percentiles in all fights, and 1.3k ahead of RDM. It completely destroys them, in that sense BLM is overtuned hugely compared to the other casters. Ranged just need buffs, may as well take a 2nd BLM.

P.S Tobias, if you aren't playing MNK in savage, which is actually where job balance and player skill matters the most, how can you just ignore positionals? As a fundamental part of the job, regardless if RoE is easy to use (at most they could reduce the RoE to 10s maybe, but still give 30s of free positionals) I guess that would require a bit more thinking to using it maybe? would love to know how quick your Extreme trials are for a DRG to only use 1-2 Battle Litanys. an average encounter for each EX in PF is roughly around 9-10 mins I'd say. Which is easily 4 Battle Litanys. (Also MNK can only use RoE at the start of Innocence and Titania and then not again for a few more minutes because the lack of AoEs don't allow it to proc).

BRUUUUH It's more clear then ever you don't know how to read the logs from the site that shall not be named.

Insightful discussion. Please elaborate. I'd love to know what exactly was wrong. the site ranks based on raid dps or adjusted dps. Raid dps is better however to evaluate each dps's contributions to the group. Looking at my own logs I can see BH buffs the group by about 450-480dps. So, simply take that away from the rDPS rankings on MNK and there you have it. Of course, I'm only using my average raid contributions since I'm not delving into every group to see average out BH to take away the exact number from all percentiles. Feel free to tell me where I went wrong

[Katie_Kitty]

This may hurt for some people to hear, but if you haven't cleared it by now on whatever job, then the problem is skill.

What a stupid thing to say. Motivation has nothing to do with it? Or are you a bad player with no skill if you decide to take a break for a while after E2 and don't come back until weeks later? Do you have to push for clearing everything as fast as humanly possible in order to be a decent player? What if you decide to go do something else before finishing a fight... That makes you bad?

Sorry but you're not gonna make very many friends or supporters with this attitude.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

What a stupid thing to say. Motivation has nothing to do with it? Or are you a bad player with no skill if you decide to take a break for a while after E2 and don't come back until weeks later? Do you have to push for clearing everything as fast as humanly possible in order to be a decent player? What if you decide to go do something else before finishing a fight... That makes you bad?

Sorry but you're not gonna make very many friends or supporters with this attitude.

Ooo my bad, in my initial response I did put time as a factor for not clearing as well, which could also include motivation too. I think I clicked reply on someone else and lost the initial response and forgot to put it back in. But you're right. And I apologize if that other post comes across as dismissive to players who may not have time or the motivation. It wasn't supposed to come across so sharp.

[Akiudo]

If you checked my first post. You'd see that MNK isn't overtuned though, it is 2nd in E1s, 2nd in E2s and 1st on E3S and E4S. Simply because the positional requirements are removed for parts of the fights. E2S is literally full uptime and MNK is still 2nd to BLM. If the Job was so overtuned it would be top in every fight would it not?

to be fair, while i personally think the only thing "overtuned" with monk is mantra, and i really would prefer giving something like this to the other melees instead of holding it against monk, citing being only top dps in 2 out of 4 fights and second place in the other two as proof of balance is kinda "meh".

Stil though, someone has to be top dps, and barring the before mentioned mantra i really don't see why this someone should be any other class anymore than monk, balance is not inheritely broken because monk is at the top, but because discrepancies between classes as a whole

[Shurrikhan]

If you checked my first post. You'd see that MNK isn't overtuned though, it is 2nd in E1s, 2nd in E2s and 1st on E3S and E4S. Simply because the positional requirements are removed for parts of the fights. E2S is literally full uptime and MNK is still 2nd to BLM. If the Job was so overtuned it would be top in every fight would it not? If MNK is overtuned then BLM is also overtuned, and DRG... It's strong but it's not in need of the so-called hard nerfs your clamoring for.

Also, regarding not getting RoE off. That was not my point. The point was that it needed planning to actually benefit from it fully, sure you could get it off, but why get it off for the 1st AoE when you'd still be able to hit positionals and then not have it for the 2nd AoE when positionals are much harder to get to? was my point. Both are more flexible yes, but do they really deserve to be 1500~ dps behind BLM? The RDM in my static can't do the tether in E3S because there is not enough time to cast > insta cast/move. Whereas a BLM can triple cast, swift cast and do the entire thing seamlessly. BLM has on demand movement every 30s and every 60s. On top of that, they have random procs for movement which further enhances their movement, on top of teleporting. Xenoglossy is also instant. You underestimate just how much movement a BLM has now. As I stated, this archaic thinking regarding BLM being a turret is so old. It's got so much on demand movement for most mechanics that it loses so little compared to SMN which has to save Ruin IVs for both weaving AND movement, and RDM requires a cast before the instant cast or reprisel is a DPS loss.

"Overtuned" =/= top place.
"Overtuned" = having a significant rDPS (that is to say pDPS + indirect contribution given - indirect contribution used from others, i.e. the total damage contribution a job brings to a raid) lead over most of the roster even when those trailing provide no compensatory attractors.

Which, Monk does. Of course, so does BLM, and at present even DRG, SAM, and NIN. And one of our jobs will be picked as the new target goal for balance. We can say, despite the game being balanceable around any job, that Monk is likely overtuned because if everyone was brought up to Monk's level, content would, in fact, get significantly easier in its dps checks when going from a current "meta" party to a newly-balanced "non-meta" party.