Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Raylazer11]

With the amount of utility and damage the monk brings currently, before patch 5.1, there is no real reason to bring any other melee besides maybe Dragoon as a Second melee. Sam doesn't do enough damage. Nin, though recently buffed, still has it's fair share of issues. The main one of which is trick attack.

The reason Nin has been so low on DPS was because of it's utility. Monk has great personal and raid utility, yet is top DPS.

Even though I personally dont like SAM in any regard I understand how it should be balanced because it's kit is 100% selfish. Dragoon I believed is balanced as the #2 melee DPS. Monk and Nin should be interchangeable because of the utilities they can/should provide.

But enough about me. If you think you can change my mind try it.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

+1

Even if NIN stayed where it's at, if Monk was lowered to where NIN is it would go a long way to making the "balance" make sense. We'll see if the SAM rework of Shoha fixes that though.

Monk where it's at currently is pretty ridiculous.

[Eliadil]

+1

Even if NIN stayed where it's at, if Monk was lowered to where NIN is it would go a long way to making the "balance" make sense. We'll see if the SAM rework of Shoha fixes that though.

Monk where it's at currently is pretty ridiculous.

Shoha will sadly not fix the whole sam issue but it will at least help us deal some more damage. The real issue is that our rotation is based on a specific SkS tier and having 100% boss uptime in order to not delay our burst. Fixing this will also help Sam get on the upper end of the melee job.

As for Dragoon, I keep saying that it does way too much atm, damage, buffs... Imo, if Monk's brotherhood was a general damage buff and not only a physical buff, yeah then Dragoon would need to be above. Atm however, I don't think that's the case.
I personally think that Sam should be way higher than it is right now, followed by Monk, then Dragoon and Ninja roughly on par. (Can't speak about ninja tbh, I don't have played the class at all :x )

That, and buffing some ranged dps and casters would make for a more healthy game balance overall...

[Tobias_Azuryon]

As for Dragoon, I keep saying that it does way too much atm, damage, buffs... Imo, if Monk's brotherhood was a general damage buff and not only a physical buff, yeah then Dragoon would need to be above. Atm however, I don't think that's the case.
I personally think that Sam should be way higher than it is right now, followed by Monk, then Dragoon and Ninja roughly on par. (Can't speak about ninja tbh, I don't have played the class at all :x )

I get ya regarding SAM. I think it's overly complicated for what it's supposed to do and suffers from skill bloat personally, but I only have what I've personally gotten to use it with and I haven't used it as much.

Dragoon's the melee DPS the others should be based around imo. Its crit buff is on a crazy cooldown, it does good damage at the cost of being in melee range, can buff a friend for 5% and can buff itself for short windows. This also doesn't even go into the fact that it's kit has several oGCD buttons and skills, on top of a resource management that becomes easier at 80 but still is something you have to keep up.

A perfectly balanced Melee DPS list imo would be:

SAM - The BLM of Melee, selfish and no utility but big deeps to make up for it.
DRG - Less damage than SAM, but more utility
MONK/NIN - same damage, same utility so that it's a choice rather than an objective meta.

To clarify by using DRG as a basis, the more utility, the less damage. The less utility, the more damage. That should be the golden rule, however Monk as it is currently breaks this rule.

Right now you have zero reason to bring a SAM into endgame content. that's not to say that SAM's aren't viable or good and/or that regular content you'll have "problems." But the fact remains that SAM barely offers anything to the table while supposedly being the "selfish dps" when Monk can flat out increase damage, increase heals, buff, and do insane damage by face rolling the keyboard across 6 buttons.

Monk is throwing off the balance of the whole melee DPS at the moment imo, because due it lacking any need to care about directionals, and having form shift and so many ways to balance GL and Chakras, any detriment the class used to have is effectively gone, especially now that you can stack Riddles without having to change Fists Style. They can literally do Riddle of earth, get a flat defense buff, ignore directionals, put on fists of fire, go to town on the boss, and then use North Star and by the time you get to the second Riddle of Earth is back up.

Monk has no detriments, meanwhile Ninja is ridiculously more complicated to play due to mudras/server ping/etc and has little damage. In a perfectly balanced game if NIN remains as hard as it is to play, it should have MORE damage than a monk because of how much you have to do to get the damage output out of it, but right now you can hit 30 buttons to get midddling damage as a Ninja, or you can just faceroll 6 buttons to hit the top of the dps with Monk. That's not a good place for the DPS to be.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

That, and buffing some ranged dps and casters would make for a more healthy game balance overall...

I think MCH could use a buff and overall help with dps on ranged attackers, but right now you get the sustained dps without any of the tradeoffs of melee DPS.

To use a exaggerated example, when doing Eden 1 there are lasers, movement, etc and my MCH can consistently without worrying about anything apply pressure and damage to the boss and continue to barrage them with bullets and my normal rotation. The DPS being lower (but maybe not as low as it is currently) makes perfect sense because Ranged DPS has no risk to reward in that regard, as opposed to Melee DPS which have to upkeep resources and stay in range of attacks or flat out stop damaging anything to avoid getting killed.

I've seen some people say that "movement" shouldn't be involved with damage calculations but I believe it absolutely should. If you can continue to barrage and destroy enemies while staying safe and far away and can't be stopped from casting, what's the detriment to the class? In an ideal scenario we'd get MCH to buff, get rid of the useless Tactician or give it more utility to make the nerfed damage make sense, give DNC more utility, etc. There's options there for their support class.

If a MCH does as much damage as a BLM, as some have proposed there's no point to play BLM. The balance there is that you can literally ignore mechanics and keep sustained damage on a boss. So anything other than a slight buff would raise my eyebrow a bit.

[Sathona]

I agree, Monk was overtuned honestly

[Zyneste]

BLM: 100 [Stays the same]
SAM: 97.5 [Stays the same]
MNK: 97 [-2% from now. Lord is MNK broken.]
DRG: 96.5 [-.25% from now]
SMN: 96 [+5% from now]
NIN: 96 [-.25% from now]
MCH: 94.5 [+6% from now]
RDM: 94 [+5% from now]
BRD: 94 [+5%]
DNC: 93.5 [+4.5% from now]

What this does [aside from caster raise throwing it out of wack] is keep the same roles in similar damage, while keeping the lower roles high enough to stay relevant with the raid bonus. BLM should be king. RDM/SMN should be able to play nicely with a BLM by being able to fill the free slot typically claimed by melee [RDM will need magical embolden for that like we said.]

This is where I put them in terms of RDPS [The important metric.]

[Tobias_Azuryon]

This is where I put them in terms of RDPS [The important metric.]

NIN below SMN?

Woof. Why should MNK be at the top next to DRG if NIN is going to get nerfed just for Trick Attack? I wish they'd get rid of that skill completely with how people believe that's reason for everything to be nerfed.

MNK still throws off the entire meta of Melee dps if you do it this way. Because it's not just about RDPS, it's about the tools and kit.

NIN being harder to play, and then getting gimped for Trick Attack, while Monk is not only braindead easy to play but has easily accessible utility every 90secs isn't something I'll agree with.

MNK being higher than DRG is also silly to me, as their one 5% buff for other people shouldn't nerf DRG more than Monks HEALING buff and damage buff. If anything MNK and NIN should both have damage buffs equal-ish in range, but DRG should definitely be higher than Monk due to Littany's super long cooldown. The more selfish the DPS the higher on the list it should be.

Having NIN lower than even Summoner, when NIN has to deal with Mudras, server ticks, 5 buttons to get Trick Attack off, and even less contribution to RDPS than really is worth factoring in I don't see merit to.

[Rika007]

This is where I put them in terms of RDPS [The important metric.]

This only works if you give back Machinist Dismantle and a new damage utility ability to take place for the loss of original Hypercharge. MCH is a greed class., it does not contribute to rDPS at all. While it's mobility should mean that it won't be outputting the exact same as BLM or SAM, it's numbers need to reflect that very greedy playstyle or it has no reason to exist. Bard is in a similar spot in that if the devs continue to hold to this idea that it should be the middle ground between DNC and MCH (which most BRD players don't like but that's another issue), much like how SMN is a middle ground between RDM and BLM, then BRD's numbers should be right around where SMN and DRG are.

Now if you give both these jobs back their support kits? Different story, they can have that lower personal output.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

This only works if you give back Machinist Dismantle and a new damage utility ability to take place for the loss of original Hypercharge. MCH is a greed class., it does not contribute to rDPS at all. While it's mobility should mean that it won't be outputting the exact same as BLM or SAM, it's numbers need to reflect that very greedy playstyle or it has no reason to exist. Bard is in a similar spot in that if the devs continue to hold to this idea that it should be the middle ground between DNC and MCH (which most BRD players don't like but that's another issue), much like how SMN is a middle ground between RDM and BLM, then BRD's numbers should be right around where SMN and DRG are.

Now if you give both these jobs back their support kits? Different story, they can have that lower personal output.

Partially agreed.

If I were to have an ideal list based on yours I'd go with something like this:
BLM
SAM
DRG
NIN (If Mudras stay the same I'd argue it should be rid of TA and given higher dps but not as high as SAM)
MNK
MCH
SMN
BRD
RDM
DNC

SMN with heals and res should definitely not be that high on the list of damage. And if Ranged DPS are going to stay low they need more utility, but MCH could use a bit of a buff so long as they keep the selfish dps mentality.