Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[Raylazer11]

What's also great is that you dont have to be good at MNK to be good at MNK.
The kit is just way to easy compared to the other DPS kits available.
Faceroll = DAMAGE
No skill required.
Press 1 of 3 buttons every so often and you'll be top DPS no matter what you do.
What a nicely designed Job.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Just because it isn't first in every fight means it's not overtuned? The hell kind of logic is this?

Answer me this: Why is a class with better support than half the classes below them competing with a selfish caster for the top DPS spot, and why does anyone think that is okay?

Well an overtuned job would surely dominate in every single fight at all percentiles? But it doesn't and the only fights it excels in are the fights it can ignore positionals and which actually benefit the MNK by design.

Um.. because FFLOGs is combining the raid contribution that MNK adds, on to its own DPS? which is rightfully so? If you discount BH, which is about 450-500, that puts BLM like 300-400 ahead in personal DPS. So...yeah, MNK isn't ahead of BLM until you factor in the support and then it overtakes it. As I already said, FFLOGS ranks DPS in terms of raid DPS. A MNK doing 12,500 is actually doing 12,050~. This new ranking system has everyone throwing a hissy fit because everyone can finally see accurately the actual DPS a support brings. There was never this much uproar in HW where a DRG was about 300dps in front of a MNK and BLM when doing the double ranged comp. and 300 back then was a huge amount (10% of what a MNK was capable of).

So, yeah, that's why it's okay for a support job to bring more total raid dps than a selfish job? That's the way the game has been since HW. It's only ShB that doesn't know where it wants to place support, some are top, some are bottom.

[Shurrikhan]

It's been.

Ohgodit'sbeen10years.

So my memory might be a little off - I recall Commandos being how you kept stagger from falling and Ravagers how you pushed it, but I also wasn't a master of the system.

That said, naming convention aside (Commando doesn't really fit FF14, Ravager less likely too), we aim for four distinct roles to which divide our playstyles (Jobs). In this manner, one job of each of our current roles could fit into one of these new roles.

In an ideal world, each Job could shift its paradigm and gain different traits to fit their party (A "Nuker" Black Mage has Xenoglossy, a "Commando" Black Mage has a polyglot spender to enhance a following Skill Chain / Spellburst), but in our slightly more grounded fantasy, it'd much easier to just slide each job into one and design it accordingly.

That said, we can also just shove Machinist, Samurai, and Black Mage into their own category for FF14's system ("Cannons") and make the fullsuite attribute bonus stronger.
(Instead of 1% per, it's 1% per and +4% for a full house. Easy street)

Again, I just don't feel like there's a need. I'd much rather how Monk fills the Commando position (does what a party fluidly but fundamentally needs which is not what can more easily be considered Ravager, Saboteur, or Synergist) distinct from Samurai not just because they're different takes on Commando, but because they're different beasts altogether. The 'roles' should be terms of convenience, nothing more, to which some jobs are obviously better fits than others over a larger span of situations or intensities. Some may play a better point-guard than others, but no matter who's doing it, it's still just a task or position, not the limit of their capacities.

[Raylazer11]

Well an overtuned job would surely dominate in every single fight at all percentiles? But it doesn't and the only fights it excels in are the fights it can ignore positionals and which actually benefit the MNK by design.

Um.. because FFLOGs is combining the raid contribution that MNK adds, on to its own DPS? which is rightfully so? If you discount BH, which is about 450-500, that puts BLM like 300-400 ahead in personal DPS. So...yeah, MNK isn't ahead of BLM until you factor in the support and then it overtakes it. As I already said, FFLOGS ranks DPS in terms of raid DPS. A MNK doing 12,500 is actually doing 12,050~. This new ranking system has everyone throwing a hissy fit because everyone can finally see accurately the actual DPS a support brings. There was never this much uproar in HW where a DRG was about 300dps in front of a MNK and BLM when doing the double ranged comp. and 300 back then was a huge amount (10% of what a MNK was capable of).

So, yeah, that's why it's okay for a support job to bring more total raid dps than a selfish job? That's the way the game has been since HW. It's only ShB that doesn't know where it wants to place support, some are top, some are bottom.

BRUUUUH It's more clear then ever you don't know how to read the logs from the site that shall not be named.

[SaitoHikari]

Well an overtuned job would surely dominate in every single fight at all percentiles? But it doesn't and the only fights it excels in are the fights it can ignore positionals and which actually benefit the MNK by design.

Um.. because FFLOGs is combining the raid contribution that MNK adds, on to its own DPS? which is rightfully so? If you discount BH, which is about 450-500, that puts BLM like 300-400 ahead in personal DPS. So...yeah, MNK isn't ahead of BLM until you factor in the support and then it overtakes it. As I already said, FFLOGS ranks DPS in terms of raid DPS. A MNK doing 12,500 is actually doing 12,050~. This new ranking system has everyone throwing a hissy fit because everyone can finally see accurately the actual DPS a support brings. There was never this much uproar in HW where a DRG was about 300dps in front of a MNK and BLM when doing the double ranged comp. and 300 back then was a huge amount (10% of what a MNK was capable of).

So, yeah, that's why it's okay for a support job to bring more total raid dps than a selfish job? That's the way the game has been since HW. It's only ShB that doesn't know where it wants to place support, some are top, some are bottom.

I mean, it's still overtuned when all of the high support DPS are still occupying the bottom spots even with raid DPS display with a massive gap split in the middle, no matter how much you try and spin it. And it's definitely still overtuned when even Samurai is only ahead of Monk by like 100-200 aDPS while providing nearly no support in comparison.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

I mean anyone who's good at their job should be planning regardless. Monk just needs less.

ROE has a really short cooldown for what it provides, and can almost be upkept the entire fight, so I still don't agree here.

It's not Battle Littany where you can only use it maybe once or twice a fight, Riddle can be used at least 3-4 times a trial fight, easily, which makes covering any missed positionals child's play when you also have the two charges of North Star that are on small cooldowns as well.

I'm sorry but I may not main monk for savage content but positionals are a moot point to me in ShB. Especially with RoE not requiring a stance change. IT's a fire and forget easy button to ignore half of the "detriment" to the kit. If directionals were harder and greased lightning was harder to upkeep and you couldn't have everyone generate chakra for you? Sure I could understand the payoff. But right now you're saying this one thing that is only a problem maybe a TINY percent of a fight is the reason they should compete with a selfish dps and still retain their utility. I just won't be down with that lol

You keep going on about competing with a selfish DPS. What exactly are you looking at? BLM IS the top personal DPS in the game. SAM needs to be buffed up to those levels. But these selfish DPS should not be better when you take into account the raid buffs provided by a MNK. Look on FFLOGs

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

Minus 450-500 to get an idea of MNK's personal damage. It is below a BLM. it's only ahead due to raid contribution.

I'm sorry but everyone talking about buffs will trivialise the content. The content is already done, it's been done since 2 months ago. This may hurt for some people to hear, but if you haven't cleared it by now on whatever job, then the problem is skill. Any composition this late in can clear savage. It's already trivial now because it's outgeared so much. Buff the jobs that need buffing and scale 5.1 content accordingly. Done.
I have to wonder though, what sort of nerf are people wanting from MNK? There will always be a meta comp in this game. But when you have selfish DPS at the top of rDPS and pDPS then they automatically become lock-ins which is what we're seeing with BLM, SAM should have higher pDPS than MNK and at the top 100% of players, it does. But it needs to be higher across all percentiles, and only when factoring in support should MNK, NIN and DRG be ahead. Right now, the caster slot has absolutely no competition. NIN is only 500 away from MNK, DRG is like 300ish and SAM is in the middle. These jobs can all compete for the same slot, because 500dps is not that much at these DPS levels, unlike HW and SB. BLM is 1k ahead of SMN across all percentiles in all fights, and 1.3k ahead of RDM. It completely destroys them, in that sense BLM is overtuned hugely compared to the other casters. Ranged just need buffs, may as well take a 2nd BLM.

P.S Tobias, if you aren't playing MNK in savage, which is actually where job balance and player skill matters the most, how can you just ignore positionals? As a fundamental part of the job, regardless if RoE is easy to use (at most they could reduce the RoE to 10s maybe, but still give 30s of free positionals) I guess that would require a bit more thinking to using it maybe? would love to know how quick your Extreme trials are for a DRG to only use 1-2 Battle Litanys. an average encounter for each EX in PF is roughly around 9-10 mins I'd say. Which is easily 4 Battle Litanys. (Also MNK can only use RoE at the start of Innocence and Titania and then not again for a few more minutes because the lack of AoEs don't allow it to proc).

BRUUUUH It's more clear then ever you don't know how to read the logs from the site that shall not be named.

Insightful discussion. Please elaborate. I'd love to know what exactly was wrong. the site ranks based on raid dps or adjusted dps. Raid dps is better however to evaluate each dps's contributions to the group. Looking at my own logs I can see BH buffs the group by about 450-480dps. So, simply take that away from the rDPS rankings on MNK and there you have it. Of course, I'm only using my average raid contributions since I'm not delving into every group to see average out BH to take away the exact number from all percentiles. Feel free to tell me where I went wrong

[Katie_Kitty]

This may hurt for some people to hear, but if you haven't cleared it by now on whatever job, then the problem is skill.

What a stupid thing to say. Motivation has nothing to do with it? Or are you a bad player with no skill if you decide to take a break for a while after E2 and don't come back until weeks later? Do you have to push for clearing everything as fast as humanly possible in order to be a decent player? What if you decide to go do something else before finishing a fight... That makes you bad?

Sorry but you're not gonna make very many friends or supporters with this attitude.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

What a stupid thing to say. Motivation has nothing to do with it? Or are you a bad player with no skill if you decide to take a break for a while after E2 and don't come back until weeks later? Do you have to push for clearing everything as fast as humanly possible in order to be a decent player? What if you decide to go do something else before finishing a fight... That makes you bad?

Sorry but you're not gonna make very many friends or supporters with this attitude.

Ooo my bad, in my initial response I did put time as a factor for not clearing as well, which could also include motivation too. I think I clicked reply on someone else and lost the initial response and forgot to put it back in. But you're right. And I apologize if that other post comes across as dismissive to players who may not have time or the motivation. It wasn't supposed to come across so sharp.

[Dogempire]

I think MCH could use a buff and overall help with dps on ranged attackers, but right now you get the sustained dps without any of the tradeoffs of melee DPS.

To use a exaggerated example, when doing Eden 1 there are lasers, movement, etc and my MCH can consistently without worrying about anything apply pressure and damage to the boss and continue to barrage them with bullets and my normal rotation. The DPS being lower (but maybe not as low as it is currently) makes perfect sense because Ranged DPS has no risk to reward in that regard, as opposed to Melee DPS which have to upkeep resources and stay in range of attacks or flat out stop damaging anything to avoid getting killed.

I've seen some people say that "movement" shouldn't be involved with damage calculations but I believe it absolutely should. If you can continue to barrage and destroy enemies while staying safe and far away and can't be stopped from casting, what's the detriment to the class? In an ideal scenario we'd get MCH to buff, get rid of the useless Tactician or give it more utility to make the nerfed damage make sense, give DNC more utility, etc. There's options there for their support class.

If a MCH does as much damage as a BLM, as some have proposed there's no point to play BLM. The balance there is that you can literally ignore mechanics and keep sustained damage on a boss. So anything other than a slight buff would raise my eyebrow a bit.

I mean I think that ranged and melee should be almost the same on movement intensive fights and melee should be a little higher on fights like E2S where there's not as much movement and melee has almost as much uptime as ranged.

That being said, I wouldn't mind ranged doing the same dps or maybe 100-200 more in exchange (Well dancer would still need like 400-500 more) for more useful utility instead of a 180s cd reduce damage that's basically the nerfed version of addle/feint. Something that ranged can provide that no other roles can considering any buffs ranged gives, minus dance partner, every other class can do but better.

As it stands now monk has better utility than bard/dancer and better dps, which is broken as hell.

[Osmond]

snip

Hmm, that'll be hard to change your mind, but I do understand where you coming from based on the utilities that MNK brings to the group. Their utilities, yes it is very good..too good so I can see it hurts other melee DPS, in the long term. The only way I can see them give them a justifiable nerf is 1, Riddle of Fire, 25% straight dmg buff on a 90sec CD? That's stupid, that needs a nerf....15% at most. 2, Earth's Reply, 30secs nullify direction for free.....NERF..no excuses 15 secs or 10secs. Potency on WS are fine as it is IMO. I don't think those needs to be changed.