Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[Capn_Goggles]

I am so glad you aren't in charge of balancing. The key word is balance.

We aren't just balancing jobs against each other, we are balancing jobs against fights. If Titan savage takes X amount of raid DPS to beat then continually buffing jobs will just make content easier than intended. You can't just bring the bottom up. It has been repeated many times but has fallen on deaf ears: POWER CREEP EXISTS.

There's no need to be condescending, especially considering that your point is largely nonsense. There's essentially two macro-tiers of jobs at their current power level. Tier 1 consists of the Melee DPS and BLM, with Tier 2 consisting of the Ranged DPS and RDM/SMN. You essentially have an even 50/50 split between "good" jobs and "bad" jobs with 5 in each tier. In each of these macro-tiers the jobs are fairly close to one-another in terms of DPS, but Tier 1 is notably more powerful than Tier 2. Logically speaking, the content must be balanced around a team consisting of the top 4 DPS jobs all being on the same team; meaning that buffing ANY job lower than the four highest performing DPS will have next to zero impact on raid DPS unless it displaces a job in the top 4 in terms of output.

Basically, if tomorrow they jacked the potencies for every Tier 2 job to match Dragoon then you would see basically no improvement in the best clear times because you've simply expanded the power level horizontally rather than vertically. Nerfs should be reserved for jobs that are unintentionally powerful, such as having unexpected synergies or rotations that nobody saw coming, and buffs should be reserved for jobs that have no logical reason to be brought along beyond fun factor like literally any Tier 2 job. Everything else should just fall under quality of life changes and extremely minor balancing tweaks.

[MerlinCross]

You must have missed the patch (post-release) where they massively buffed MNK

I mean I saw the buffs but there's a difference in seeing the buffs and understanding them. Espically when the patch didn't seem to actually increase their Damage, just fixed some issues, like Riddle of Fire. I don't play MNK but thought "oh hey these look okay, it might need some more tuning but it's nice to see they're still working on it.". I wasn't expecting those what seemed to me as some QoL changes to ramp MNK up to these levels of damage output. While still seemingly be annoying/unfun to actually play.

Unless there's another patch I missed, I'm just going off the 5.05 patch.

[Metalwrath]

I mean I saw the buffs but there's a difference in seeing the buffs and understanding them. Espically when the patch didn't seem to actually increase their Damage, just fixed some issues, like Riddle of Fire. I don't play MNK but thought "oh hey these look okay, it might need some more tuning but it's nice to see they're still working on it.". I wasn't expecting those what seemed to me as some QoL changes to ramp MNK up to these levels of damage output. While still seemingly be annoying/unfun to actually play.

Unless there's another patch I missed, I'm just going off the 5.05 patch.

Im not sure you couldnt see how the extra free no positionals wasnt going to massivly increase their damage.The numbers probably havent jumped as much since the patch on lets say for example on e3s as the entire fight has no positional requirement but the changes for the other fights are absolutly huge for dps gains.Not to mention removing the slow down on riddle of fire means you are hitting more skills under that damage increase buff.
It's also only going to get more op as the patch goes on too as how crit scales with the free forbidden chakras you get.you'll see them more often the higher your crit stat is.

[Lambdafish]

There's no need to be condescending, especially considering that your point is largely nonsense. There's essentially two macro-tiers of jobs at their current power level. Tier 1 consists of the Melee DPS and BLM, with Tier 2 consisting of the Ranged DPS and RDM/SMN. You essentially have an even 50/50 split between "good" jobs and "bad" jobs with 5 in each tier. In each of these macro-tiers the jobs are fairly close to one-another in terms of DPS, but Tier 1 is notably more powerful than Tier 2. Logically speaking, the content must be balanced around a team consisting of the top 4 DPS jobs all being on the same team; meaning that buffing ANY job lower than the four highest performing DPS will have next to zero impact on raid DPS unless it displaces a job in the top 4 in terms of output.

Basically, if tomorrow they jacked the potencies for every Tier 2 job to match Dragoon then you would see basically no improvement in the best clear times because you've simply expanded the power level horizontally rather than vertically. Nerfs should be reserved for jobs that are unintentionally powerful, such as having unexpected synergies or rotations that nobody saw coming, and buffs should be reserved for jobs that have no logical reason to be brought along beyond fun factor like literally any Tier 2 job. Everything else should just fall under quality of life changes and extremely minor balancing tweaks.

The thing is though, we can already see my point put into play. I'm unsure if you played the creator tier of patches (patch 3.4/3.5), but the devs messed up really bad when it came to job balance and fight balance. Yes, the difficulty of the raid was really good, and has shaped the game moving forward, but the fight design themselves couldn't keep up with job balance. You might know about "Skip soar", but it was more than that, Cruise Chaser in particular could be completely broken if you had the right comp to push enough DPS out.

We are already starting to see this with fights in Eden if you bring the right comp, and buffing jobs will simply make skipping phases happen more and more easily, particular as people get more gear. This isn't about certain jobs being too weak, its about jobs being both too powerful and too weak. This isn't a problem right now, but will be if MNK is not addressed.

You are right that tier 2 should be buffed by a large margin, and I agree, but with MNK in the state that it is now, the tier 1 jobs also need to be rebalanced so that jobs like SAM and BLM are more powerful than MNK (Which the original point was about FYI, I never mentioned Tier 2 jobs), what kind of effect would that have on fights and the state of savage as whole? Personally, I get creator flashbacks.

As I said, power creep exists.

[Capn_Goggles]

You are right that tier 2 should be buffed by a large margin, and I agree, but with MNK in the state that it is now, the tier 1 jobs also need to be rebalanced so that jobs like SAM and BLM are more powerful than MNK (Which the original point was about FYI, I never mentioned Tier 2 jobs), what kind of effect would that have on fights and the state of savage as whole? Personally, I get creator flashbacks.

As I said, power creep exists.

Oh, I totally agree that monk shouldn't be pushing out the same personal DPS or better than BLM/SAM while also offering a ton of party utility. They kind of put themselves in a crappy position with these knee-jerk monk changes because scaling them back after the fact will make them seem incompetent. Buffing jobs to compete with MNK is not the right approach because in my opinion it's the only job right now that is just too strong in a category of jobs that is already notably stronger than ranged dps or casters barring BLM. I think the right approach in this case is scaling monk back slightly while bringing SAM closer to BLM's level.

However, your statement of "you can't just bring the bottom up" is far too open to misinterpretation in that case, because when I think "bottom" I'm thinking the absolute dregs of the DPS charts where dancer is currently wallowing in sewage.

[MerlinCross]

Im not sure you couldnt see how the extra free no positionals wasnt going to massivly increase their damage.The numbers probably havent jumped as much since the patch on lets say for example on e3s as the entire fight has no positional requirement but the changes for the other fights are absolutly huge for dps gains.Not to mention removing the slow down on riddle of fire means you are hitting more skills under that damage increase buff.
It's also only going to get more op as the patch goes on too as how crit scales with the free forbidden chakras you get.you'll see them more often the higher your crit stat is.

*Flip* The riddle of Earth Change? No I actually couldn't see how much that would spike the damage when, as a non monk main or really understand how some of their stuff works, it still has to compete with Riddle of Fire or even Wind. My mind sees that and goes "Oh neat, one of their 3 buffs/stances got changed but they still have to pick one to be in right?"

I saw the Riddle of Fire buff as a bigger buff

[Metalwrath]

*Flip* The riddle of Earth Change? No I actually couldn't see how much that would spike the damage when, as a non monk main or really understand how some of their stuff works, it still has to compete with Riddle of Fire or even Wind. My mind sees that and goes "Oh neat, one of their 3 buffs/stances got changed but they still have to pick one to be in right?"

I saw the Riddle of Fire buff as a bigger buff

Ok i get you dont know anything at all about monk.Ill explain then.Riddle of earth used to put you into fists of earth stance.This was changed in SHadowbringers.So when you cast it now you stay in whatever fist stance you are in.So if you are in fists of fire you are stil in fists of fire stance during riddle of earth and when you get earths reply bonus.

[Magnedeus]

No, Monk got no love at all in SB. And then they finally made them good in SHB and now you wanna take that away from us?

[Shurrikhan]

No, Monk got no love at all in SB. And then they finally made them good in SHB and now you wanna take that away from us?

"Curses for Monk being alt-meta last expansion! All other jobs should now bow before it!"

Taking away an imbalance is never a bad thing. Monk, BLM, and possibly DRG being nerfed a bit while the remaining 7 jobs get buffed so that all jobs are now competitive with each other is not a bad thing.

Let's not pretend that there's some divine retribution at work when rotating FotM overpowered jobs.

[Lambdafish]

snip

I apologise for the vagueness, what I was calling "the bottom" was SAM and to some extent SMN and RDM. To me the ranged role is a different scenario entirely, and I really don't want them buffed in damage at all.

It's highly off topic, but I would rather they give BRD back foes, give MCH back dismantle, and add refresh and palisade back in as role actions. Then once that is done, adjust the DPS within the role itself. That will give the role a tonne more identity and worth within fights beyond them simply competing with MNK, DRG, and BLM in damage.