Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

they are both helpful and necessary when they're the only option short of power creep.

At this point in the game, power creep for what? If this discussion was a week before Savage i'd agree. Savage has been cleared now with min ilvl comps in week 1. All of which contained the underpowered jobs. Nerfing the "OP" jobs, MNK, BLM, DRG, SAM(yeah i'm including it, it still craps on the underpowered jobs, so relative to them it's OP), would feel terrible for anyone playing those jobs.

Buff the other jobs and scale 5.1 content accordingly. Then there's no such thing as a power creep because everything has scaled with it.

[Crushnight]

Should MNK be nerfed?
No.
MNK has been fairly dead all during SB and right now its honestly in a good spot to the point many other jobs need buffs to catch up to them instead of nerfing. The DPS requirements of the current savage tier are still fairly tight on underperforming jobs, MNK doesn't single handidly blow any fight out of the water.

Mnk should not be beating Sam or Blm at 95 percentile+ EVER so long as it has Brotherhood and mantra and right now mnk is the only valid reason to buff Blm and that is absurd because we do not need the gulf to get wider between the bottom 5 dps than it already is, the mnk changes brought about unforeseen consequences and well atm i think it does need a nerf not a severe one but does need it, it is too strong and it gives to the party where both blm/sam just don't apart from dmg.

[EpicOverlord85]

I'd argue that by the end of Stormblood the job had evolved but then it was regressed in Shadowbringers.At end of stormblood we had tornado kick in our opener because of the riddle of wind changes.We could also use it in our rotations due to the lower cd on pb.
Stormblood monk was quite strong but some of the damage buffs were given to ducktape the overlaying issues of the job which they had promised to deal with in Shadowbringers.WHat we got instead in Shadowbringers was a dumbed down version of monk on steroids.Weaving isnt really a thing we have to do anymore and you're there now just doing a static rotation while waiting to be able to hit an extra button every now and again.
Stormblood monk was erally busy.Shadowbringer monk is nearly an autopilot.

This exactly. Shadowbringers was a major regression for Monk.

[Rakeesh]

Fairly dead? A good MNK could replace NIN in the DRG-MCH-BRD meta comps since Deltascape, and has typically outperformed NIN rDPS since early Alphascape.

Again, unless the Savage dps checks are just coincidentally undertuned even with off-meta compositions and were actually supposed to be tuned to the ease that 4 MNKs would currently experience without LB penalty, BLM, MNK, and DRG are presently overpowered. (Even now the dps checks are not tight due to underperforming jobs, only due to underperforming players. Short of multiple deaths, they're not at all an issue.) When you bring all jobs up to an overpowered level, i.e. make every job overpowered, the only difference from actually sticking to one's guns and tuning all jobs to the appropriate rDPS benchmark (even if that means some nerfs) is that you further trivialize content. Sure, Nerfs won't feel great for previously overpowered classes, but there is nothing wrong with nerfs in themselves; they are both helpful and necessary when they're the only option short of power creep.

And yet in other threads people argue that RDM's raise is useless because a single death can cost you the fights in Eden Savage. Now it's multiple deaths are fine.

Earlier it's said that barely anyone has cleared Savage yet. Now the "OP" jobs trivialize the fights.

Damage checks are really tight so they have to buff the low end jobs. Now it's damage checks are easy and only bad players are the problem.

The shifting of goal posts currently going on just to argue in favor of nerfs is silly.

Fact is we don't know what the devs want the intended power level of our characters to be but considering they've been buffing jobs I'd tend to argue in favor of the high-end DPS are their actual vision and the rest are undertuned.

Power creep is a silly point since that only would apply to Eden Savage right now. Which has already been cleared in the first week it was released. What's there to creep anymore? Don't want all the "bads" to clear it because the other jobs should get buffs and it makes it "easier"?

That's literally the only piece of content right now where the 'power creep' thing makes the slightest bit of sense. No one could seriously mean future content because the devs can balance the fights around all the jobs doing higher damage.


TL;DR:
Arguments in favor of nerf:

Power creep > unsubstantial and pointless for the future
Unfair (uti. tax etc) > people being petty that their job hasn't been buffed yet


I'd say buff all the jobs now so no one feels slighted and ride the emotional high of a great expansion release and just balance future content around that. If you really want to, see Eden Savage as a sacrificial lamb for tons of future content still waiting for us and every job being happy with themselves.

[Liam_Harper]

Why do you wanna nerf monk when there are other jobs with much bigger problems? Monk was in the gutter for a long time with tons of problems and no one cared about monk, now that he does damage everyone care about it. Black mage has tons of mobility now being able to turret and do insane damage from a distance while monk not only has positional it's also a lot more complex to play, samurai the same has a very good kit a gap closer a shield a skill to jump back it's just not damage that counts. That's why summoner which is in the gutter now should be third DPS because his rotation is very hard to master while having to stay still to cast ruin III and sometimes to triple weave. But I guess pointing the gun to monk is much easier than solving the rest of the problems.

No one is pointing a gun at monk.

Monks are asking for all other low end classes to be buffed. If this happened, your power relative to the other classes would be lower. This is in effect the exact same thing as a minor nerf to the very high end classes (Monk, DRG and, yes I agree BLM). Note I said minor nerf, no one wants good classes gutted, we're just talking balance.

Take an example, Ninja got buffed, dropping SAM to last place as melee dps even despite also getting a buff. How? SAM didn't get nerfed, right? Buffing the lower end class changed SAM's power relative to Ninja. It's the same for Monk, your position in the power rankings will change regardless whether you get nerfed or they get buffed.

Futhermore, buffing classes with no nerfs just power creeps the classes, effectively nerfing the difficulty of every piece of instanced content in the game (except maybe Savage which already stacks the top classes, but is coincidentally the easiest tier yet).

[MerlinCross]

I'd argue that by the end of Stormblood the job had evolved but then it was regressed in Shadowbringers.At end of stormblood we had tornado kick in our opener because of the riddle of wind changes.We could also use it in our rotations due to the lower cd on pb.
Stormblood monk was quite strong but some of the damage buffs were given to ducktape the overlaying issues of the job which they had promised to deal with in Shadowbringers.WHat we got instead in Shadowbringers was a dumbed down version of monk on steroids.Weaving isnt really a thing we have to do anymore and you're there now just doing a static rotation while waiting to be able to hit an extra button every now and again.
Stormblood monk was erally busy.Shadowbringer monk is nearly an autopilot.

So it's power is stupidly high but isn't that fun to actually play by the sounds of it.

[BarretOblivion]

Mnk should not be beating Sam or Blm at 95 percentile+ EVER so long as it has Brotherhood and mantra and right now mnk is the only valid reason to buff Blm and that is absurd because we do not need the gulf to get wider between the bottom 5 dps than it already is, the mnk changes brought about unforeseen consequences and well atm i think it does need a nerf not a severe one but does need it, it is too strong and it gives to the party where both blm/sam just don't apart from dmg.

So? Then buff SAM. The DPS requirements on these fights are still tight at the moment even with a "meta comp" in the later fights of Leviathan and Titan. Nerfs never happen in this game except before Savage tier releases. We are past that point now so using MNK as a baseline for all other classes is what the team has decided upon clearly. It just means they are going to increase the HP of the next Savage tier to compensate for the buffs.

[Lambdafish]

So? Then buff SAM.

I am so glad you aren't in charge of balancing. The key word is balance.

We aren't just balancing jobs against each other, we are balancing jobs against fights. If Titan savage takes X amount of raid DPS to beat then continually buffing jobs will just make content easier than intended. You can't just bring the bottom up. It has been repeated many times but has fallen on deaf ears: POWER CREEP EXISTS.

[Metalwrath]

So it's power is stupidly high but isn't that fun to actually play by the sounds of it.

Well when you are job thats supposed to be based off maximizing damage from positionals hence the justification for higher damage some people are trying to defend and then you go look at a 3 min window and see on average that only 35 seconds of that time you need to do actual positionals.
Monk needs a serious nerf or rework.Main people defending it how OP it is probably havent mained monk for a long time or are enjoying the mssive dps advantage for raids.
If we start useing monk to gauge how much other jobs need to be buffed it will ruin the game and make it easy mode because ALL jobs will end up being broken.

[Katie_Kitty]

I'm confused. At the start of the Expansion I saw a lot of complaining from MNKs and now their supposed to be one of the top DPS but I sometimes still see MNK's complain about the job.

WTH has happened with this class while I wasn't looking and why do people still complain about it considering it was the kicked dog for 2 expansions(One of them being their 'own poster' expansion)?

You must have missed the patch (post-release) where they massively buffed MNK