Dark Knight: 5.0x Feedback Thread

[Freyyy]

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I actually agree with you on everything you're saying. I think we basically just don't mean the same thing with the word "active". Things like that happen sometimes and I may be the one mistaking then. Might be just a "feel" thing.

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I'd like to respond on the TBN issue that has been discussed a few times recently tho. People wanting it to become free are really starting to worry me. Do you want every job to just do everything for free ? Just press a button anytime and you get things ? How is that fun ? They've already ruined WAR with this mindset, please don't take DRK away.

I don't think that they should reduce or delete TBN's MP cost. I think that they should in fact do the opposite and give the other tanks' equivalents similar "drawbacks" that'd be refunded with proper use of the ability, or at least requirements (and Oath gauge isn't one, might as well be a CD). If you delete every single drawbacks/requirements on every single ability on a job it suddenly becomes way easier and less engaging. Look at what happened to WAR, who used to heavily rely on IB for mitigation. It was a very cool mechanic (and used to be my favourite tank skill in the game in ARR) but instead of expanding the tanking aspect of the class around it they just gave the class Fell Cleave on top of more free and frequent mitigation buttons which made IB obsolete and then outright deleted it in ShB while replacing it with the same thing but... Free, just on a short cooldown and with no damage attached to it (RI).
I think they should've done it the other way around. Reduce the number of CDs (like delete rampart for example), just give us the big 2min CD and the "unique flavor" CD (Camo, DM, Thrill, with a rework for the first two, and give one to PLD), and put a better emphasis on active mitigation directly tied with resources like old IB and TBN. Make it reward good use with a refund of its cost or similar things so that it ends up being (at least) DPS neutral if you don't use it mindlessly and tanks would feel much more unique to eachother. They could have multiple tanking skills that work like that or some of them could be amped by pairing it with something else (like Heart of Stone paired with Brutal Shell, but way better). Instead of giving tanks more abilities that just deal damage without anything else attached to it.

I'm more concerned about these aspects on other tanks right now than anything on DRK. I'm concerned about the evolution of tanking in general in this game. I like ShB's global changes, but I dislike that the tanking aspects of tanks is so same-y and free/passive/without consequences (besides TBN).

[Shurrikhan]

Edit: Confusion cleared up.

I actually agree with you everything you're saying. I think we basically just don't mean the same thing with the word "active". Things like that happen sometimes and I may be the one mistaking then. Might be just a "feel" thing.

I'd like to respond on the TBN issue that has been discussed a few times recently tho. People wanting it to become free are really starting to worry me. Do you want every job to just do everything for free ? Just press a button anytime and you get things ? How is that fun ? They've already ruined WAR with this mindset, please don't take DRK away.

We have yet to argue about Dark Arts, though? The topic of our replies to each other was specifically Darkside, a mechanic entirely separate from TBN.

I've never advocated that TBN should be outright free. Ever. Generally speaking, I've only ever advocated for increased complexity and depth for DRK, not less. I dislike the new Delirium, and much preferred old Inner Release, though I would have preferred that it also double BG generation over its duration so that it had a bit less delay to its effectiveness in dungeons.

Admittedly, separate from any discussion with you, I have advocated that TBN should have a lower %HP absorption -- from 25% to 20% -- for two reasons: (1) it otherwise becomes nearly impossible to pop when badly overgearing dungeons during their forced single-pack pulls (think Twinning first pull), and (2) it's just straight up overpowered at the moment, and I believe its 15-second CD is far more vital to its gameplay than its %HP margin, especially given that even the mere 15% given in SB seemed pretty darn impactful over time. But that's it. You're barking up the wrong tree here. If I've misunderstood, and you've used the second person without reference to the person you've quoted directly prior, I apologize, but for now you appear to be putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of my own arguments.

Edit: To be clear, I like the risk-reward component of TBN. I just don't think it should be susceptible to fundamental scaling issues (as above when incoming damage in dungeons at no mitigation, slows, or stuns, are still too low to pop TBN) or, to a far lesser degree, counter-intuitive design (99% use is 100% cost, but mitigating that 1% more gives it... 0 cost). Which is a lot like how I feel about Living Dead (greater maximum HP = harder to pop LD itself in time if precasting for trimmed CD and --far more importantly-- greater WD healing requirement).

[Freyyy]

But that's it. You're barking up the wrong tree here. If I've misunderstood, and you've used the second person without reference to the person you've quoted directly prior, I apologize, but for now you appear to be putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of my own arguments.

Edit: To be clear, I like the risk-reward component of TBN. I just don't think it should be susceptible to fundamental scaling issues (as above when incoming damage in dungeons at no mitigation, slows, or stuns, are still too low to pop TBN) or, to a far lesser degree, counter-intuitive design (99% use is 100% cost, but mitigating that 1% more gives it... 0 cost). Which is a lot like how I feel about Living Dead (greater maximum HP = harder to pop LD itself in time if precasting for trimmed CD and --far more importantly-- greater WD healing requirement).

Oh sorry I might have been unclear, I wasn't directing the whole TBN part to you at all. I just wanted to respond to all the people I've seen complain about its MP cost since Xeno mentionned it a few weeks ago. I know that you didn't advocate for that yourself, the only part in my post that was answering to your quote is the very first part. I tend to agree with most of the posts I see from you on these forums. Sorry if it seemed like I was directing this towards you. I just edited the post to better seperate both parts.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh sorry I might have been unclear, I wasn't directing the whole TBN part to you at all. I just wanted to respond to all the people I've seen complain about its MP cost since Xeno mentionned it a few weeks ago. I know that you didn't advocate for that yourself, the only part in my post that was answering to your quote is the very first part. I tend to agree with most of the posts I see from you on these forums. Sorry if it seemed like I was directing this towards you. I just edited the post to better seperate both parts.

Ahh, got it. And in that case, as above -- my apologies for not giving you the benefit of the doubt especially against my own defensiveness/confusion.

Out of curiosity, how do you think we might spare the risk-reward component of TBN without leaving its current (I'd have to imagine, unintended) design vulnerabilities?