Something about the new Ascian lore

[Seraphor]

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

Light=evil and Darkness=good is just as derivative these days. I'd find it just as disappointing.
The story can be nuanced without being a cliche.

So far, the vast majority of primals have been summoned due to Ascian teachings, meaning that most primals we've faced are at least somewhat related to Zodiark's summoning, sharing the tempering effects and high aether costs.

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

[QT_Melon]

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

..Louisoix...have you actually done the coil storyline?

I don't think the person you quoted was also arguing over a reverse of roles, rather that the story may be saying that ALL primals may have their faults including the eldest of the two. This whole story is about how light and dark is about aspects necessary to sustain life.

(But besides that it's funny that you find light(white) being "bad" when culturally White is considered death in some cultures anyways)

As far as summoning, where did you get that none of the council sacrificed? The population that sacrificed were voluntary but we still don't know the story if the council demanded others for the first attempt - other than they were overseeing the summoning.

That said it's hard to call something a DEATH God when the very reason to summon it was to keep from total annihilation/extinction, I mean otherwise we wouldn't have a story period. Final Days happens, planet is done, no Ancients, no Zodiark, no Hydaelyn.

We don't know if they KNEW tempering was the side effect, there's evidence that it's possible depending on when the 14th (strongly hinted WoL) member left. We don't know who was tempered to date for sure. I mean we have clues it may have been those involved in the summoning, and or others around.

If anything seems that they were content at the very least to do the first 2 sets of sacrifice because 1. No Planet, no game. 2. No life (:P)

It was the third where we got the counterbalance because it was going too far at that point. I mean why was Hyydaelyn made not immediately after if the first set of sacrifices was a real problem?

[Zohar_Lahar]

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

In Akademia Anyder, we see a similar small-scale summoning of "Guardian Force" Quetzacoatl, which may have been a prototype of how Hydaelyn might have been summoned much later. And we also saw one other primal summoned through summoner sacrifice: Shinryu (though others were also sacrificed in the process).

[Absimiliard]

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

We know nothing of Zodiark's own personality. What we do know is that the Ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to summon it twice; once to stop the apocalypse, once to make the planet habitable again. The intended third summoning was, as far as we know, supposed to bring back those that willingly gave their lives for a cause they believed in - to give back to the heroes that had so selflessly given themselves for the greater cause. The Convocation likely could not sacrifice themselves due to the risk it would pose to their race in such dire times. After all, who is to say how long those particular Ancients had been running the show? Suddenly passing the reins in the middle of an extinction level event is a good way to expedite the downfall instead of halting it.

All we know of Hydaelyn's summoning is that it was carried out by a group of dissenters that did not like the idea of sacrificing the very life Zodiark bore to bring back those whose lives were freely given. We do not know the exact number of lives given to create Hydaelyn, but we do know it was more than twelve Ancients.

None of this reads to me like the primals would be the embodiment of selfishness. I am, however, curious as to where you found these things that the Twelve were somehow involved with Hydaelyn's summoning. The only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far are related to the Navigator, I believe. What's more, it could just as easily be that post-sundering primitives saw these symbols and concocted the Twelve on their own. We've no way to know one way or the other.

Banri Oda (MSQ writer) has said that he doesn't think players will like stories that are too dark or complex, and I think this is true in general.

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

[Iscah]

None of this reads to me like the primals would be the embodiment of selfishness. I am, however, curious as to where you found these things that the Twelve were somehow involved with Hydaelyn's summoning. The only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far are related to the Navigator, I believe. What's more, it could just as easily be that post-sundering primitives saw these symbols and concocted the Twelve on their own. We've no way to know one way or the other.

There's no evidence for the Twelve being Hydaelyn's summoners - it's just conjecture at this point, based on repeated hints that the gods Eorzeans know as the Twelve may not be real, combined with the idea that believed deities such as the primals can often be traced to a 'real' historical figure (eg. Shiva, Garuda, Moggle Mog). It was already hypothesised that the story might therefore be setting up for the reveal that the Twelve were some kind of historical figures lost to time... and now we have a yet-undetailed group of people from the reality behind the "age of creation" that the lorebook says was believed to take place before the cycle of Calamities, umbral and astral eras began.

It could be unrelated, but from the way the game tends to set up its plot points, there's a fair chance they'll turn out to be the truth behind the Twelve. We still shouldn't assume it at this point though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far" being related to the Navigator though. What signs are you thinking of?

We have prayer-stones for all the Twelve, and signs that all have been worshipped for a long time... but I can't think what you're meaning is directly related to Llymlaen above all others. The only thing I can remember that's older than even the Fifth Astral Era is the Meracydian temple in Azys Lla that has Azeyma's symbol on it.

[Absimiliard]

We have prayer-stones for all the Twelve, and signs that all have been worshipped for a long time... but I can't think what you're meaning is directly related to Llymlaen above all others. The only thing I can remember that's older than even the Fifth Astral Era is the Meracydian temple in Azys Lla that has Azeyma's symbol on it.

.
An image that appears to depict the serpent Llymlaen is supposed to have summoned can be found in The Tempest. Truth told I didn't even give it any thought until someone else pointed it out. Anywho, my statement was only referring to Shadowbringers content. We've seen plenty of other signs of the Twelve in the Source.

As an amusing aside: Legends state that Lymlaen once made use of a serpent with power over the seas. Leviathan is a serpent with power over the seas, and the Sahagin are apparently an extremely old species. Wouldn't surprise me if one legend had somehow informed the other.

[Iscah]

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

This bothered me when I first read it, and I don't think it's a fair summary, but I wasn't sure what to say in reply. It's been on my mind since then.

Claiming there's a dichotomy between "people like you" who prefer "nuance" (by which I assume you mean the things you've said you want to see - Hydaelyn being 'not good', Zodiark being 'not evil') versus people who want Hydaelyn to be good so they can be the "lolhero"* is itself lacking nuance.

* whatever a "lolhero" is anyway. I'm going to assume you mean a "power up and save the day" kind of thing.

Hydaelyn can be good and Zodiark can be inherently-dangerous-if-not-willfully-evil and we can still have a complex story. They're still primals and it complicates things.

Hydaelyn can genuinely be the 'good', loving personality She has always appeared to be, who speaks to us as a "beloved child" - even if She isn't the creator-goddess we assumed She was - but we still might need to destroy Her in the end, whether despite or because of our love for Her and everything She represents.

How is that less nuanced than "She was bad all along and now we're going to kill Her", which seems to be the end purpose of wanting to see Her not 'absolved'? That sounds far more "lolhero" to me than the prospect that She's good and we're still going to have to kill Her.

She's a primal, but one that was born out of self-sacrifice and a desire to protect life. If a primal's mind is formed by the thoughts and intents of its summoners/creators, then there is good reason to hold onto faith in Hydaelyn's intentions, for now at least.

And Zodiark? There's a big question mark about His intentions until we hear more of the story - whether from Hydaelyn, Elidibus, the Echo, Zodiark Himself or some kind of neutral third party, as most of the sources are biased to one side or the other. (Hythlodaeus might be neutral, though I don't know if we'll see them again.) But there does seem to be an immediate contrast between Hydaelyn's summoners sacrificing themselves and Zodiark's summoners (the Convocation) calling for the sacrifice of other lives while keeping their own.


Yes, I want the pseudo-goddess I (and my character) have put faith in to be truly good. I want to see my character hold to those convictions and come through it all for those she holds dear. But it's not just about "playing the hero" - I feel like the core of my character isn't heroism but empathy and loyalty to others. That's what I think of if I have to define what she's like.

And in the end, not every story has to be shades of grey, and having a clear "good side" and "bad side" isn't inherently bad storytelling. Especially if there's still complexity within those clear sides, and I think this story has it.

[Daralii]

* whatever a "lolhero" is anyway. I'm going to assume you mean a "power up and save the day" kind of thing.

Hydaelyn can be good and Zodiark can be inherently-dangerous-if-not-willfully-evil and we can still have a complex story. They're still primals and it complicates things.

Hydaelyn can genuinely be the 'good', loving personality She has always appeared to be, who speaks to us as a "beloved child" - even if She isn't the creator-goddess we assumed She was - but we still might need to destroy Her in the end, whether despite or because of our love for Her and everything She represents.

How is that less nuanced than "She was bad all along and now we're going to kill Her", which seems to be the end purpose of wanting to see Her not 'absolved'? That sounds far more "lolhero" to me than the prospect that She's good and we're still going to have to kill Her.

She's a primal, but one that was born out of self-sacrifice and a desire to protect life. If a primal's mind is formed by the thoughts and intents of its summoners/creators, then there is good reason to hold onto faith in Hydaelyn's intentions, for now at least.

And Zodiark? There's a big question mark about His intentions until we hear more of the story - whether from Hydaelyn, Elidibus, the Echo, Zodiark Himself or some kind of neutral third party, as most of the sources are biased to one side or the other. (Hythlodaeus might be neutral, though I don't know if we'll see them again.) But there does seem to be an immediate contrast between Hydaelyn's summoners sacrificing themselves and Zodiark's summoners (the Convocation) calling for the sacrifice of other lives while keeping their own.


Yes, I want the pseudo-goddess I (and my character) have put faith in to be truly good. I want to see my character hold to those convictions and come through it all for those she holds dear. But it's not just about "playing the hero" - I feel like the core of my character isn't heroism but empathy and loyalty to others. That's what I think of if I have to define what she's like.

And in the end, not every story has to be shades of grey, and having a clear "good side" and "bad side" isn't inherently bad storytelling. Especially if there's still complexity within those clear sides, and I think this story has it.

It's clear good and bad sides anyway if Hydaelyn has been playing 14d chess the entire time, the lines are just painted along mankind versus every other being in the planet's microverse instead of Hydaelyn and Her chosen against Zodiark and His chosen.

I also genuinely want to know what people define as "lolhero", because multiple people have used it just referring to the idea that the WoL hasn't been actively making things worse the entire time by working with Hydaelyn.

[Absimiliard]

Stuff

It looks like you got something out of what I wrote that wasn't intended. When I comment on people getting their feel goods from playing the lolhero, I am referring specifically (and only) to individuals that would forgo nearly all complexity of story in favor of there being an extremely cut and dry X =evil, Y = good with no extenuating factors at all. In other words, I am referring to the individuals that just want to see the hero triumph heedless of any other context. It is my belief that a fairly significant portion of people prefer these kinds of stories in this day and age, while those of us that prefer greater complexity - of which gray morality is only one possible component - in our stories are seldom given satisfaction.

Thus far Final Fantasy XIV has been pretty good about nuance most of the time. The OG primals? Usually summoned by scared primitives in search of salvation from continued assault from both the Empire and their Eorzean neighbors. The Ascians? Desperately trying to rekindle the light of their once glorious race before it goes out forever. Zodiark? He might actually be as much a victim in this as pretty much everybody else despite having been one of the driving forces behind the initial Sundering. The fact that Eorzea's leaders aren't perfect is also a nice touch. They have made things much worse than they needed to be on more than a few occasions. In addition to these things, the dev team has done an excellent job of portraying the selfish, oft times shortsighted nature of humanity as a well. The only bad guy (that wasn't a one-off) they've introduced that really has no reason other than "for teh evulz" at this point is Zenos.

In any case, I am most likely quite biased here. I personally find the idea of a creature or individual being truly good and pure to be silly. If Hydaelyn is completely absolved by the end of all this then I will most likely permanently lose interest in the game's story. All this new lore - about Ascians/Zodiark especially - piqued my interest by introducing legitimate motivations for the Ascians and the possibility that Hydaelyn is pretty guilty herself.

The MSQ chapters are often experienced months apart, which means complex plots would be even harder to follow since details get lost to memory over the years. Because of the meta, they have to prevent the plot from getting too complex or they'll lose their fans. Because this is an MMORPG, story complexity could be a bad thing.

Agreed. Stories that are too convoluted or just plain drag on for too long become problematic, especially in an MMO. I believe that might be part of why new players usually despise having to play through ARR.

[Edax]

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

Disagree. I think the majority like nuanced stories, the "lolhero" wannabes being in the minority, whatever that is. But there is an argument to be made to not making the MSQ too complex. I used to be a fan of Kingdom Hearts in 2005, but at some point the story got so completely convoluted that even the plot summaries of all the games was incomprehensible. Square Enix is infamous for make stories that are utterly impenetrable to causal viewers. "The main protagonist of Final Fantasy X is a dream? HUH?" Banri Oda is probably cognizant of these flaws in storytelling.

The MSQ chapters are often experienced months apart, which means complex plots would be even harder to follow since details get lost to memory over the years. Because of the meta, they have to prevent the plot from getting too complex or they'll lose their fans. Because this is an MMORPG, story complexity could be a bad thing.