Something about the new Ascian lore

[Absimiliard]

We have prayer-stones for all the Twelve, and signs that all have been worshipped for a long time... but I can't think what you're meaning is directly related to Llymlaen above all others. The only thing I can remember that's older than even the Fifth Astral Era is the Meracydian temple in Azys Lla that has Azeyma's symbol on it.

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An image that appears to depict the serpent Llymlaen is supposed to have summoned can be found in The Tempest. Truth told I didn't even give it any thought until someone else pointed it out. Anywho, my statement was only referring to Shadowbringers content. We've seen plenty of other signs of the Twelve in the Source.

As an amusing aside: Legends state that Lymlaen once made use of a serpent with power over the seas. Leviathan is a serpent with power over the seas, and the Sahagin are apparently an extremely old species. Wouldn't surprise me if one legend had somehow informed the other.

[WanderingStar]

We do not know what created the lifestream, but we do know that it does not transcend the shards.

This there proof of this anywhere? If this was discussed I missed it in the quests.

[Daralii]

This there proof of this anywhere? If this was discussed I missed it in the quests.

Soul Surrender from what I remember. It's why Ardbert requested that Minfilia bring his party back to the First.

[WanderingStar]

Soul Surrender from what I remember. It's why Ardbert requested that Minfilia bring his party back to the First.

Ah. So just because mortals require other means to traverse the barriers between worlds I didn't think that implied or meant each one had it's own lifestream.

[Iscah]

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

This bothered me when I first read it, and I don't think it's a fair summary, but I wasn't sure what to say in reply. It's been on my mind since then.

Claiming there's a dichotomy between "people like you" who prefer "nuance" (by which I assume you mean the things you've said you want to see - Hydaelyn being 'not good', Zodiark being 'not evil') versus people who want Hydaelyn to be good so they can be the "lolhero"* is itself lacking nuance.

* whatever a "lolhero" is anyway. I'm going to assume you mean a "power up and save the day" kind of thing.

Hydaelyn can be good and Zodiark can be inherently-dangerous-if-not-willfully-evil and we can still have a complex story. They're still primals and it complicates things.

Hydaelyn can genuinely be the 'good', loving personality She has always appeared to be, who speaks to us as a "beloved child" - even if She isn't the creator-goddess we assumed She was - but we still might need to destroy Her in the end, whether despite or because of our love for Her and everything She represents.

How is that less nuanced than "She was bad all along and now we're going to kill Her", which seems to be the end purpose of wanting to see Her not 'absolved'? That sounds far more "lolhero" to me than the prospect that She's good and we're still going to have to kill Her.

She's a primal, but one that was born out of self-sacrifice and a desire to protect life. If a primal's mind is formed by the thoughts and intents of its summoners/creators, then there is good reason to hold onto faith in Hydaelyn's intentions, for now at least.

And Zodiark? There's a big question mark about His intentions until we hear more of the story - whether from Hydaelyn, Elidibus, the Echo, Zodiark Himself or some kind of neutral third party, as most of the sources are biased to one side or the other. (Hythlodaeus might be neutral, though I don't know if we'll see them again.) But there does seem to be an immediate contrast between Hydaelyn's summoners sacrificing themselves and Zodiark's summoners (the Convocation) calling for the sacrifice of other lives while keeping their own.


Yes, I want the pseudo-goddess I (and my character) have put faith in to be truly good. I want to see my character hold to those convictions and come through it all for those she holds dear. But it's not just about "playing the hero" - I feel like the core of my character isn't heroism but empathy and loyalty to others. That's what I think of if I have to define what she's like.

And in the end, not every story has to be shades of grey, and having a clear "good side" and "bad side" isn't inherently bad storytelling. Especially if there's still complexity within those clear sides, and I think this story has it.

[LineageRazor]

Ah. So just because mortals require other means to traverse the barriers between worlds I didn't think that implied or meant each one had it's own lifestream.

The Warriors of Darkness were trying to cause a rejoining, because that was the only way to allow any remnant of the First to survive. They knew very well that not a single life on the First would survive the Rejoining - but the First's Lifestream, and all of the souls within it, would rejoin with the Lifestream on the Source. This implies that BEFORE the Rejoining, the Lifestreams are separate.

[Iscah]

The Warriors of Darkness were trying to cause a rejoining, because that was the only way to allow any remnant of the First to survive. They knew very well that not a single life on the First would survive the Rejoining - but the First's Lifestream, and all of the souls within it, would rejoin with the Lifestream on the Source. This implies that BEFORE the Rejoining, the Lifestreams are separate.

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

The alternatives are between letting the First "freeze" into an irreversible flood of Light, eternally locked in place without release, or letting it dissolve into formless aether before that can happen. It would kill everyone in the world, but allow their souls to be free to rejoin the Lifestream.

That concept still works whether the shard initially had a separate Lifestream or not, but I've previously assumed that there's one single Lifestream for all the shards. It would make more sense with Hydaelyn being located within it but also able to call to Warriors of Light on the shards, not just the Source. I'm not sure if there's direct quotes to support it or not.

[Daralii]

* whatever a "lolhero" is anyway. I'm going to assume you mean a "power up and save the day" kind of thing.

Hydaelyn can be good and Zodiark can be inherently-dangerous-if-not-willfully-evil and we can still have a complex story. They're still primals and it complicates things.

Hydaelyn can genuinely be the 'good', loving personality She has always appeared to be, who speaks to us as a "beloved child" - even if She isn't the creator-goddess we assumed She was - but we still might need to destroy Her in the end, whether despite or because of our love for Her and everything She represents.

How is that less nuanced than "She was bad all along and now we're going to kill Her", which seems to be the end purpose of wanting to see Her not 'absolved'? That sounds far more "lolhero" to me than the prospect that She's good and we're still going to have to kill Her.

She's a primal, but one that was born out of self-sacrifice and a desire to protect life. If a primal's mind is formed by the thoughts and intents of its summoners/creators, then there is good reason to hold onto faith in Hydaelyn's intentions, for now at least.

And Zodiark? There's a big question mark about His intentions until we hear more of the story - whether from Hydaelyn, Elidibus, the Echo, Zodiark Himself or some kind of neutral third party, as most of the sources are biased to one side or the other. (Hythlodaeus might be neutral, though I don't know if we'll see them again.) But there does seem to be an immediate contrast between Hydaelyn's summoners sacrificing themselves and Zodiark's summoners (the Convocation) calling for the sacrifice of other lives while keeping their own.


Yes, I want the pseudo-goddess I (and my character) have put faith in to be truly good. I want to see my character hold to those convictions and come through it all for those she holds dear. But it's not just about "playing the hero" - I feel like the core of my character isn't heroism but empathy and loyalty to others. That's what I think of if I have to define what she's like.

And in the end, not every story has to be shades of grey, and having a clear "good side" and "bad side" isn't inherently bad storytelling. Especially if there's still complexity within those clear sides, and I think this story has it.

It's clear good and bad sides anyway if Hydaelyn has been playing 14d chess the entire time, the lines are just painted along mankind versus every other being in the planet's microverse instead of Hydaelyn and Her chosen against Zodiark and His chosen.

I also genuinely want to know what people define as "lolhero", because multiple people have used it just referring to the idea that the WoL hasn't been actively making things worse the entire time by working with Hydaelyn.

[Edax]

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

Disagree. I think the majority like nuanced stories, the "lolhero" wannabes being in the minority, whatever that is. But there is an argument to be made to not making the MSQ too complex. I used to be a fan of Kingdom Hearts in 2005, but at some point the story got so completely convoluted that even the plot summaries of all the games was incomprehensible. Square Enix is infamous for make stories that are utterly impenetrable to causal viewers. "The main protagonist of Final Fantasy X is a dream? HUH?" Banri Oda is probably cognizant of these flaws in storytelling.

The MSQ chapters are often experienced months apart, which means complex plots would be even harder to follow since details get lost to memory over the years. Because of the meta, they have to prevent the plot from getting too complex or they'll lose their fans. Because this is an MMORPG, story complexity could be a bad thing.

[Absimiliard]

Stuff

It looks like you got something out of what I wrote that wasn't intended. When I comment on people getting their feel goods from playing the lolhero, I am referring specifically (and only) to individuals that would forgo nearly all complexity of story in favor of there being an extremely cut and dry X =evil, Y = good with no extenuating factors at all. In other words, I am referring to the individuals that just want to see the hero triumph heedless of any other context. It is my belief that a fairly significant portion of people prefer these kinds of stories in this day and age, while those of us that prefer greater complexity - of which gray morality is only one possible component - in our stories are seldom given satisfaction.

Thus far Final Fantasy XIV has been pretty good about nuance most of the time. The OG primals? Usually summoned by scared primitives in search of salvation from continued assault from both the Empire and their Eorzean neighbors. The Ascians? Desperately trying to rekindle the light of their once glorious race before it goes out forever. Zodiark? He might actually be as much a victim in this as pretty much everybody else despite having been one of the driving forces behind the initial Sundering. The fact that Eorzea's leaders aren't perfect is also a nice touch. They have made things much worse than they needed to be on more than a few occasions. In addition to these things, the dev team has done an excellent job of portraying the selfish, oft times shortsighted nature of humanity as a well. The only bad guy (that wasn't a one-off) they've introduced that really has no reason other than "for teh evulz" at this point is Zenos.

In any case, I am most likely quite biased here. I personally find the idea of a creature or individual being truly good and pure to be silly. If Hydaelyn is completely absolved by the end of all this then I will most likely permanently lose interest in the game's story. All this new lore - about Ascians/Zodiark especially - piqued my interest by introducing legitimate motivations for the Ascians and the possibility that Hydaelyn is pretty guilty herself.

The MSQ chapters are often experienced months apart, which means complex plots would be even harder to follow since details get lost to memory over the years. Because of the meta, they have to prevent the plot from getting too complex or they'll lose their fans. Because this is an MMORPG, story complexity could be a bad thing.

Agreed. Stories that are too convoluted or just plain drag on for too long become problematic, especially in an MMO. I believe that might be part of why new players usually despise having to play through ARR.