Something about the new Ascian lore

[QT_Melon]

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Gonna take issue with this statement.

We don't exactly have evidence that either summoning is exactly the case you mentioned. We have guesses, but nothing concrete because it wouldn't explain sundered souls for both followers/summoning groups.

The reason is it doesn't explain the sundered souls. How is Hydaelyn able to have souls sundered supposedly from the groups that self sacrificed yet assume the same was not done for Zodiark.

We do know that there was the Convocation of the 13th, first sacrifice took half the population, that may have included members of their own group. That would leave about 6-7 members. Then another half of that population again to house life - which would leave around 3 members. Now since the last 3 didn't want to sacrifice themselves yes, their's a slight point...but that didn't mean NONE of the members sacrificed themselves.

But then we have the ones who summoned Hydaelyn. How is it that their souls were still around after the sacrifice if they sacrificed themselves?

So either both primals house those sacrificed souls which is why they may be more attuned to those specific ones even after the sundering.

Which would still ask the question were they sundered from Zodiark being split? What about those with Hydaelyn how did they get split if they already sacrificed themselves?

The only guess to that to the above theory, is that said souls became part of the lifestream waiting for reincarnation. Then once the sundering happened if souls were housed in Zodiark they got split, if they were in the lifestream they were split. Everyone one else left either were gone or escaped the sundering? But if they were alive then...what happened?

Or... Both parties were still alive until the sundering happened?

[YianKutku]

We do know that there was the Convocation of the 13th, first sacrifice took half the population, that may have included members of their own group. That would leave about 6-7 members. Then another half of that population again to house life - which would leave around 3 members. Now since the last 3 didn't want to sacrifice themselves yes, their's a slight point...but that didn't mean NONE of the members sacrificed themselves.

Emet-Selch does say that the Ascians usually raise the fragmented versions of the other Convocation members to their former positions, during the times they're being all Organization XIII. This implies that the other members of the Convocation were Sundered, not Sacrificed. Which in turn implies they were among the survivors of the half-and-half-again sacrifices to Zodiark.

He does say they don't have to, but it's easier, since the Convocation members were already tempered. Which suggests that at least some of the other Convocation members did escape the "responsibility" of "volunteering" for the sacrifice to Zodiark.

I do concede that it also doesn't mean that all the Convocation members survived Zodiark. Just "at least some", which can mean anything from one other to everyone else.

[QT_Melon]

Emet-Selch does say that the Ascians usually raise the fragmented versions of the other Convocation members to their former positions, during the times they're being all Organization XIII. This implies that the other members of the Convocation were Sundered, not Sacrificed. Which in turn implies they were among the survivors of the half-and-half-again sacrifices to Zodiark.

He does say they don't have to, but it's easier, since the Convocation members were already tempered. Which suggests that at least some of the other Convocation members did escape the "responsibility" of "volunteering" for the sacrifice to Zodiark.

I do concede that it also doesn't mean that all the Convocation members survived Zodiark. Just "at least some", which can mean anything from one other to everyone else.

Right.

But what you are implying is that Hydaelyn's followers are also alive since they too were sundered and not sacrificed.

[Daralii]

Right.

But what you are implying is that Hydaelyn's followers are also alive since they too were sundered and not sacrificed.

But we only know of one. Apart from them, there's no information on how many summoners she had or what their fates were.

[MrThinker]

But we only know of one. Apart from them, there's no information on how many summoners she had or what their fates were.

And that one is also contentious because it isn't confirmed in game. So for all we know, the summoners of Hydaelyn ARE completely gone and she just chooses sundered ancient souls because 'reasons'.

[TankHunter678]

But we only know of one. Apart from them, there's no information on how many summoners she had or what their fates were.

It is possible that since it was explicitly mentioned that they sacrificed their life force by our new-old friend that Hydaelyn never got the souls of her summoners. They gave her the Aether that comprised their bodies, but not their souls. Which would make them targets of the sundering but still be there for Hydaelyn to turn into WoLs.

[QT_Melon]

And that one is also contentious because it isn't confirmed in game. So for all we know, the summoners of Hydaelyn ARE completely gone and she just chooses sundered ancient aoyls because 'reasons'.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...IyjzEYdvw/edit

If you wanted to read the dialog.

It's interesting since the dialog switches from the 13th (as he mentioned the 14th left) but mentions again later that the 14th was involved with the first summoning? Unless there was a mistake in the translation?

[MrThinker]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...IyjzEYdvw/edit

If you wanted to read the dialog.

It's interesting since the dialog switches from the 13th (as he mentioned the 14th left) but mentions again later that the 14th was involved with the first summoning? Unless there was a mistake in the translation?

I think its because the name of the group is 'The Convocation of 14' regardless of there actually being 14 people in at the time. Sort of like Organization XIII still being Organization XIII after we kill about half its members by KH2.

[QT_Melon]

Then as far as summoners go the dialog mentions multiple people in the form of "they". Then you have the cave mural paintings.

We could take the theory that the life force was in account, but not the souls. Let's say since the Ancients can see souls that people who had given up their life force - may have given them the idea to sacrifice the mortal life force to bring their loved ones back? I mean it's an interesting trait that the Ancients can see the soul - so for those that lived for eternity may have been able to see a soul transcend after the lifeforce is gone?
?
The tempered ones were easier to find after the sundering vs any other ancient - making it easy for both sides easier to find, ie echo? But in the case of Hydaelyn they made her use "Hear, Feel, Think" as an invocation on her followers that ends up circumventing the usual traits of tempering?

[Kokomi]

And in the end, not every story has to be shades of grey, and having a clear "good side" and "bad side" isn't inherently bad storytelling. Especially if there's still complexity within those clear sides, and I think this story has it.

I think this is the relevant distinction, though. Many people in general (and by extension the FFXIV player base) are not big fans of gray morality or darkness in the media they consume. They don’t want the characters they’ve become attached to to do bad things or to suffer too much. But some people (including me) do like these kinds of stories for various reasons.

Shadowbringers is interesting because you could argue that we are straying into that gray territory. However, looking back on the tone and themes of FFXIV as a whole, it’s actually very doubtful that this is the case. In line with your preferences, the Ascian arc will likely conclude with the message Ancients = bad and new life = good. There are several ways this could happen which have been brought up as theories on the forum: maybe the Ancients themselves are bad because they looked down on mortal life, or perhaps Zodiark’s tempering made them that way (referring to those that approved the sacrificing of new life). There are also strong hints that creation magic was too powerful and for that reason staying sundered is best.

I think wanting Hydaelyn to turn out to be less good than we think might have to do with desiring some internal conflict with the Scions - having them struggle as their core beliefs are shaken. For me personally, that would add some welcome realism, but this whole thing just comes down to storytelling preference.