Something about the new Ascian lore

[LineageRazor]

Nothing we've seen suggest Hydaelyn requires or consumes aether, although that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it seems likely that Hydaelyn isn't as consuming as Zodiark whatever the details are.

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggests it.

Not sure where this 'Zodiark created the lifestream' idea came from.

From me, for one, though others may have considered the idea independently. It's my theory that the Lifestream is the "new life" Zodiark created in order to heal the world (the command he needed the second sacrifice to fulfill). Life that existed prior to the creation of the Lifestream (such as the Ancients) are incompatible with the Lifestream. Their souls don't dissolve into it properly, and they remain whole (if Sundered), occasionally being reborn into mortal bodies while other mortals get newly constructed souls fashioned from Lifestream Aether. This incompatibility is a big part of the reason why I think the Lifestream didn't exist before Zodiark.

The Lifestream healed the planet, rendered it fertile again, and the Council decided when its work was done to sacrifice it (and all the life forms born from it) back into Zodiark to bring back their fallen comrades.

The Dissenters weren't keen on this plan, both because they didn't want everyone to be slaves to Zodiark, and also because the Lifestream had produced INTELLIGENT life forms. Slaughtering them all would be a heinous moral breech. Hence, Hydaelyn, to stop Zodiark, and protect the new life.

Whether or not they knew that Hydaelyn's actions (the Sundering) would have the effects that it did are unclear. It's not even clear whether the effects were known in advance to Hydaelyn herself.

[TankHunter678]

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggest.

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

[Absimiliard]

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

Hydaelyn is most likely limited to acting in the Source. While she did manage to send Minfilia to the First - and with a significant amount of power, no less - she probably could not have taken anything back from that. Reaching across worlds is something that requires a truly immense amount of power to begin with. A specific set of circumstances exist which make G'raha Tia uniquely suited to perform this feat, and even he has a significant number of limitations that prevent him from performing certain actions with it.

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe. What's to say she hasn't been tempering people? Everyone shown with the Echo thus far has displayed an abnormal need to perform selfless acts seemingly without consideration for the consequences they could face. If indeed the Echo is something she confers, which (barring retcon) is currently known to be the case, then it seems likely she might be influencing these people on some level. Even if not, the reality is that she is still a primal. If she does not feed then she will die.

[Theodric]

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe.

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

[Seraphor]

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

Light=evil and Darkness=good is just as derivative these days. I'd find it just as disappointing.
The story can be nuanced without being a cliche.

So far, the vast majority of primals have been summoned due to Ascian teachings, meaning that most primals we've faced are at least somewhat related to Zodiark's summoning, sharing the tempering effects and high aether costs.

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

[QT_Melon]

And again, take note of the methods of summoning.
Zodiark required the sacrifice of half of the population, but conveniently not the convocation of 14(13) who actually summoned him.
Hydaelyn was summoned by the self-sacrifice of those who summoned her. (hints that it could be 'the twelve')

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that very distinction means everything towards the nature of the summoned primal. It is a Final Fantasy after all.
And what have the Scions done when invoking a summoning ritual so far? Louisoix? Papalymo?

..Louisoix...have you actually done the coil storyline?

I don't think the person you quoted was also arguing over a reverse of roles, rather that the story may be saying that ALL primals may have their faults including the eldest of the two. This whole story is about how light and dark is about aspects necessary to sustain life.

(But besides that it's funny that you find light(white) being "bad" when culturally White is considered death in some cultures anyways)

As far as summoning, where did you get that none of the council sacrificed? The population that sacrificed were voluntary but we still don't know the story if the council demanded others for the first attempt - other than they were overseeing the summoning.

That said it's hard to call something a DEATH God when the very reason to summon it was to keep from total annihilation/extinction, I mean otherwise we wouldn't have a story period. Final Days happens, planet is done, no Ancients, no Zodiark, no Hydaelyn.

We don't know if they KNEW tempering was the side effect, there's evidence that it's possible depending on when the 14th (strongly hinted WoL) member left. We don't know who was tempered to date for sure. I mean we have clues it may have been those involved in the summoning, and or others around.

If anything seems that they were content at the very least to do the first 2 sets of sacrifice because 1. No Planet, no game. 2. No life (:P)

It was the third where we got the counterbalance because it was going too far at that point. I mean why was Hyydaelyn made not immediately after if the first set of sacrifices was a real problem?

[Zohar_Lahar]

Hydaelyn could represent an entirely different school of summoning that we haven't really seen anywhere else.

In Akademia Anyder, we see a similar small-scale summoning of "Guardian Force" Quetzacoatl, which may have been a prototype of how Hydaelyn might have been summoned much later. And we also saw one other primal summoned through summoner sacrifice: Shinryu (though others were also sacrificed in the process).

[Absimiliard]

Zodiark represents selfish self-preservation.
Hydaelyn represents selfless sacrifice for the benefit of others.

We know nothing of Zodiark's own personality. What we do know is that the Ancients willingly sacrificed themselves to summon it twice; once to stop the apocalypse, once to make the planet habitable again. The intended third summoning was, as far as we know, supposed to bring back those that willingly gave their lives for a cause they believed in - to give back to the heroes that had so selflessly given themselves for the greater cause. The Convocation likely could not sacrifice themselves due to the risk it would pose to their race in such dire times. After all, who is to say how long those particular Ancients had been running the show? Suddenly passing the reins in the middle of an extinction level event is a good way to expedite the downfall instead of halting it.

All we know of Hydaelyn's summoning is that it was carried out by a group of dissenters that did not like the idea of sacrificing the very life Zodiark bore to bring back those whose lives were freely given. We do not know the exact number of lives given to create Hydaelyn, but we do know it was more than twelve Ancients.

None of this reads to me like the primals would be the embodiment of selfishness. I am, however, curious as to where you found these things that the Twelve were somehow involved with Hydaelyn's summoning. The only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far are related to the Navigator, I believe. What's more, it could just as easily be that post-sundering primitives saw these symbols and concocted the Twelve on their own. We've no way to know one way or the other.

Banri Oda (MSQ writer) has said that he doesn't think players will like stories that are too dark or complex, and I think this is true in general.

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

[Iscah]

None of this reads to me like the primals would be the embodiment of selfishness. I am, however, curious as to where you found these things that the Twelve were somehow involved with Hydaelyn's summoning. The only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far are related to the Navigator, I believe. What's more, it could just as easily be that post-sundering primitives saw these symbols and concocted the Twelve on their own. We've no way to know one way or the other.

There's no evidence for the Twelve being Hydaelyn's summoners - it's just conjecture at this point, based on repeated hints that the gods Eorzeans know as the Twelve may not be real, combined with the idea that believed deities such as the primals can often be traced to a 'real' historical figure (eg. Shiva, Garuda, Moggle Mog). It was already hypothesised that the story might therefore be setting up for the reveal that the Twelve were some kind of historical figures lost to time... and now we have a yet-undetailed group of people from the reality behind the "age of creation" that the lorebook says was believed to take place before the cycle of Calamities, umbral and astral eras began.

It could be unrelated, but from the way the game tends to set up its plot points, there's a fair chance they'll turn out to be the truth behind the Twelve. We still shouldn't assume it at this point though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the only signs of the Twelve we have even seen so far" being related to the Navigator though. What signs are you thinking of?

We have prayer-stones for all the Twelve, and signs that all have been worshipped for a long time... but I can't think what you're meaning is directly related to Llymlaen above all others. The only thing I can remember that's older than even the Fifth Astral Era is the Meracydian temple in Azys Lla that has Azeyma's symbol on it.

[Iscah]

This is sadly true. Those of us that prefer a more nuanced approach to things are a minority. Most would rather get their feel goods from being the lolhero again.

This bothered me when I first read it, and I don't think it's a fair summary, but I wasn't sure what to say in reply. It's been on my mind since then.

Claiming there's a dichotomy between "people like you" who prefer "nuance" (by which I assume you mean the things you've said you want to see - Hydaelyn being 'not good', Zodiark being 'not evil') versus people who want Hydaelyn to be good so they can be the "lolhero"* is itself lacking nuance.

* whatever a "lolhero" is anyway. I'm going to assume you mean a "power up and save the day" kind of thing.

Hydaelyn can be good and Zodiark can be inherently-dangerous-if-not-willfully-evil and we can still have a complex story. They're still primals and it complicates things.

Hydaelyn can genuinely be the 'good', loving personality She has always appeared to be, who speaks to us as a "beloved child" - even if She isn't the creator-goddess we assumed She was - but we still might need to destroy Her in the end, whether despite or because of our love for Her and everything She represents.

How is that less nuanced than "She was bad all along and now we're going to kill Her", which seems to be the end purpose of wanting to see Her not 'absolved'? That sounds far more "lolhero" to me than the prospect that She's good and we're still going to have to kill Her.

She's a primal, but one that was born out of self-sacrifice and a desire to protect life. If a primal's mind is formed by the thoughts and intents of its summoners/creators, then there is good reason to hold onto faith in Hydaelyn's intentions, for now at least.

And Zodiark? There's a big question mark about His intentions until we hear more of the story - whether from Hydaelyn, Elidibus, the Echo, Zodiark Himself or some kind of neutral third party, as most of the sources are biased to one side or the other. (Hythlodaeus might be neutral, though I don't know if we'll see them again.) But there does seem to be an immediate contrast between Hydaelyn's summoners sacrificing themselves and Zodiark's summoners (the Convocation) calling for the sacrifice of other lives while keeping their own.


Yes, I want the pseudo-goddess I (and my character) have put faith in to be truly good. I want to see my character hold to those convictions and come through it all for those she holds dear. But it's not just about "playing the hero" - I feel like the core of my character isn't heroism but empathy and loyalty to others. That's what I think of if I have to define what she's like.

And in the end, not every story has to be shades of grey, and having a clear "good side" and "bad side" isn't inherently bad storytelling. Especially if there's still complexity within those clear sides, and I think this story has it.