Something about the new Ascian lore

[Seraphor]

It's interesting you put it like this because I interpreted the MSQ differently.

Hydaelyn, to me, seems like an aether leech at this point. ... [snip]

You might be trying to fit things into a hole you've already made, wanting Hydaelyn to be the villain and Zodiark the antihero.

Nothing we've seen suggest Hydaelyn requires or consumes aether, although that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it seems likely that Hydaelyn isn't as consuming as Zodiark whatever the details are.

At the end of the day, Zodiark is a death cult god, requiring living sacrifice to fulfill it's goals, and demanding servitude.
He tempers his subjects, who are compelled to carry out his will.
I'm pretty sure we do learn that Zodiark required more and more sacrifice, that people were not happy with, as this is the reason Hydaelyn was summoned in the first place.

Hydaelyn does not do this. Everything we know about those who summoned her, and her own words to us, are explicitly about free will. Her blessing does not come with conditions, and there's nothing stopping us from opposing her.
Hydaelyn was summoned on the basis of freedom against the tyranny (direct or indirect) of Zodiark, and there's no indication that's a false narrative.

Seems to me that the sundering into 14 shards, and possibly the creation of the lifestream, was not only to effectively neutralise Zodiark, but also to allow Hydaelyn to exist without drawing upon living aether. As self-sufficient, or 'renewable' source of aether perhaps.
Not sure where this 'Zodiark created the lifestream' idea came from.

Remember, primals embody the characteristics of their summoning.
Zodiark was summoned by a group of dictatorial rulers, as a tyrant, imposing his will upon others via tempering, and requires sacrifice for power.
Hydaelyn was summoned by dissidents, as a paragon of free will, and requires nothing from her wards but the will to uphold her ideals.
That's pretty much all you need to know, everything else is just flavour.

[LineageRazor]

Nothing we've seen suggest Hydaelyn requires or consumes aether, although that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it seems likely that Hydaelyn isn't as consuming as Zodiark whatever the details are.

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggests it.

Not sure where this 'Zodiark created the lifestream' idea came from.

From me, for one, though others may have considered the idea independently. It's my theory that the Lifestream is the "new life" Zodiark created in order to heal the world (the command he needed the second sacrifice to fulfill). Life that existed prior to the creation of the Lifestream (such as the Ancients) are incompatible with the Lifestream. Their souls don't dissolve into it properly, and they remain whole (if Sundered), occasionally being reborn into mortal bodies while other mortals get newly constructed souls fashioned from Lifestream Aether. This incompatibility is a big part of the reason why I think the Lifestream didn't exist before Zodiark.

The Lifestream healed the planet, rendered it fertile again, and the Council decided when its work was done to sacrifice it (and all the life forms born from it) back into Zodiark to bring back their fallen comrades.

The Dissenters weren't keen on this plan, both because they didn't want everyone to be slaves to Zodiark, and also because the Lifestream had produced INTELLIGENT life forms. Slaughtering them all would be a heinous moral breech. Hence, Hydaelyn, to stop Zodiark, and protect the new life.

Whether or not they knew that Hydaelyn's actions (the Sundering) would have the effects that it did are unclear. It's not even clear whether the effects were known in advance to Hydaelyn herself.

[TankHunter678]

To play devil's advocate, yes, the moment that we learned Hydaelyn was a Primal, this possibility was put on the table. Every Primal we know of siphons Aether from the land - some, like Alexander, at a truly horrific rate. The possibiilty remains that Hydaelyn (and Zodairk, for that matter) are DIFFERENT in some way and don't require a supply of Aether to persist - but it's not fair to say that "nothing we've seen" suggest.

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

[Absimiliard]

The only issue with this is that Hydaelyn has actually been weakened to the point she cannot communicate with us directly anymore, much less the ability to actually help us as she did in the past. Which makes me think that Hydaelyn is running herself on a fixed amount of aether and simply refuses to draw any aether that was not originally hers to begin with, like how she used the crystals of light that Ardbert and his team had to recharge her battery a little to send Minfilia off with a chunk of power to stop the Flood of Light and even though she could have used Minfilia as a conduit to absorb the huge amount of aether in the flood to recharge herself she did not.

Hydaelyn is most likely limited to acting in the Source. While she did manage to send Minfilia to the First - and with a significant amount of power, no less - she probably could not have taken anything back from that. Reaching across worlds is something that requires a truly immense amount of power to begin with. A specific set of circumstances exist which make G'raha Tia uniquely suited to perform this feat, and even he has a significant number of limitations that prevent him from performing certain actions with it.

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe. What's to say she hasn't been tempering people? Everyone shown with the Echo thus far has displayed an abnormal need to perform selfless acts seemingly without consideration for the consequences they could face. If indeed the Echo is something she confers, which (barring retcon) is currently known to be the case, then it seems likely she might be influencing these people on some level. Even if not, the reality is that she is still a primal. If she does not feed then she will die.

[QT_Melon]

Both of the eldest primals Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically "programs". I think it's a bit extreme to call Zodiark a "death cult god" when this is the very primal that stopped events of death happening, and rewrote the laws to house life. The only problem is as with primals one is tempered so being the first primal I'm curious to know if it was an intended or just unintended side effect due to the nature of summoning a primal.

Hydaelyn when summoned may have put in a suggestion that caused her to override tempering "Hear, feel, think" like the creators saw it and wanted that in her "programming" but also may have sacrificed themselves to avoid being tempered afterwards.

[WanderingStar]

You might be trying to fit things into a hole you've already made, wanting Hydaelyn to be the villain and Zodiark the antihero.

snip

I think what I wrote was misinterpreted. I equated them to computer programs, not hero/antihero.

Regardless, if tempering is to be used as evidence a primal is evil then...consider Hydaelyn. We have still never seen anyone disobey Hydaelyn which calls into question whether they are tempered by her. This is already a strong theory in my opinion because those with the Blessing of Light cannot be tempered by other Primals. Additionally, anytime Hydaelyn has spoken to anyone with her "blessing" they obey without question - even when it means their death. Her blessing does indeed appear to come with conditions. Again, I'm not saying Hydaelyn is "the big bad" but I am saying that I don't think the fact that Zodiark tempered his followers is evidence that he, as a primal, is evil. I think it's just a function of what they are.

I think making conclusions like the Amourtines And Zodiark being...tyrants and "death cult god" and such is premature at this time. Perhaps that will be the case, perhaps not. But it's not been depicted as of yet. If Hydaelyn does not require aether for sustenance then this sets her apart from every other creature in the setting. It's possible, but I'll assume it's unlikely for now.

[TankHunter678]

I think what I wrote was misinterpreted. I equated them to computer programs, not hero/antihero.

Regardless, if tempering is to be used as evidence a primal is evil then...consider Hydaelyn. We have still never seen anyone disobey Hydaelyn which calls into question whether they are tempered by her. This is already a strong theory in my opinion because those with the Blessing of Light cannot be tempered by other Primals. Additionally, anytime Hydaelyn has spoken to anyone with her "blessing" they obey without question - even when it means their death. Her blessing does indeed appear to come with conditions. Again, I'm not saying Hydaelyn is "the big bad" but I am saying that I don't think the fact that Zodiark tempered his followers is evidence that he, as a primal, is evil. I think it's just a function of what they are.

I think making conclusions like the Amourtines And Zodiark being...tyrants and "death cult god" and such is premature at this time. Perhaps that will be the case, perhaps not. But it's not been depicted as of yet. If Hydaelyn does not require aether for sustenance then this sets her apart from every other creature in the setting. It's possible, but I'll assume it's unlikely for now.

We had Ardbert who is a WoL fragment with the blessing of light disobey, change sides, and tried to cleave Minfilia the Word of the Mother, who was merged with Hydaelyn beyond a simple agent, in two where she had to put up a barrier of light to halt the axe to survive. All because Hydaelyn was not there for them when they needed her. There was also Cyela who was a WoL who turned against Hydaelyn to assist in the rejoinings because she failed her world and saw the ascian's plan as the only way to save a world she perceived she doomed from her actions.

Tempered would never try to directly attack or even contemplate changing sides against their god. The closest we got to a Hydaelyn tempered was Minfilia when she said she was like the Ascians, and she died to give strength and freedom to Ryne to choose her own life.

[Seraphor]

I think what I wrote was misinterpreted. I equated them to computer programs, not hero/antihero.

Regardless, if tempering is to be used as evidence a primal is evil then...consider Hydaelyn. We have still never seen anyone disobey Hydaelyn which calls into question whether they are tempered by her. This is already a strong theory in my opinion because those with the Blessing of Light cannot be tempered by other Primals. Additionally, anytime Hydaelyn has spoken to anyone with her "blessing" they obey without question - even when it means their death. Her blessing does indeed appear to come with conditions. Again, I'm not saying Hydaelyn is "the big bad" but I am saying that I don't think the fact that Zodiark tempered his followers is evidence that he, as a primal, is evil. I think it's just a function of what they are.

I think making conclusions like the Amourtines And Zodiark being...tyrants and "death cult god" and such is premature at this time. Perhaps that will be the case, perhaps not. But it's not been depicted as of yet. If Hydaelyn does not require aether for sustenance then this sets her apart from every other creature in the setting. It's possible, but I'll assume it's unlikely for now.

Did you forget about the Warriors of Darkness?

Zodiark requires life sacrifice to use his powers. That's a Death Cult by definition.
I never said he was evil, but he is a tyrant, like most primals, as his base nature is to impose his will, by default he forbids free will.
He was created as an authoritarian control, to prevent the misuse of creation magicks. He's an iron fist, that's his nature.
Hydaelyn's creation was a rebellion against that.


And I think it's much more likely that Hydaelyn and the sundering created the lifestream, given that it's the only thing that seems to transcend the 14 shards, and is probably what sustains her, in a 'renewable energy' sense, as opposed to massive and irreversible sacrifice like Zodiark and other primals.

[Theodric]

In any case, I am not entirely sure Hydaelyn is quite so heroic a figure as people seem to believe.

That's my take, too. A lot of people are still treating Hydaelyn as if she is a deity - but she is not, she's a Primal and our character is a Primal slayer.

It'd be rather disappointing to me if it turns out that Hydaelyn is conveniently the exception to the rule and needs to stick around but Zodiark is bad news and needs to go. I want a bolder, more nuanced story than that.

[Absimiliard]

Did you forget about the Warriors of Darkness?

Zodiark requires life sacrifice to use his powers. That's a Death Cult by definition.
I never said he was evil, but he is a tyrant, like most primals, as his base nature is to impose his will, by default he forbids free will.
He was created as an authoritarian control, to prevent the misuse of creation magicks. He's an iron fist, that's his nature.
Hydaelyn's creation was a rebellion against that.

And I think it's much more likely that Hydaelyn and the sundering created the lifestream, given that it's the only thing that seems to transcend the 14 shards, and is probably what sustains her, in a 'renewable energy' sense, as opposed to massive and irreversible sacrifice like Zodiark and other primals.

All primals require sacrifice to use their powers. Lesser ones simply make do with aether from crystals rather than requiring living sacrifices.
- Nothing confirmed about Zodiark thus far implies or denies a tyrannical nature. We don't even know if the tempering was intentional, as many primals don't actually seem to be able to control that.
- Where does it say Zodiark was created as a means of control? Zodiark was born to save a dying world by rewriting its laws to correct the underlying issues. The second summoning - again requiring a large sacrifice just so that he'd have enough power - healed the planet of its inability to sustain life whilst (presumably) giving rise to new species to inhabit it. I do not recall reading anything about Zodiark ruling with an iron fist or what have you, though we know for a fact he tempered. The runaway powers of the Ancients were a result of their dying world, not the cause of it.
- Hydaelyn's creation was in response to the 13 wanting to sacrifice the life Zodiark created at their behest to free the souls of their brethren from within him. A group of Ancients believed that these new lifeforms deserved their fair shot and so begat Hydaelyn as a means of combating Zodiark. While we do not know at this time if any of these organisms were sapient, anecdotal evidence appears to suggest that they were not. Further information is needed to confirm.

We do not know what created the lifestream, but we do know that it does not transcend the shards. Each lifestream is unique unto itself - the cycles of life and death between individual shards bear no overlap. Each shard is essentially a mirror of the Source. Any differences between them are the result of whatever events unfolded there. Recall the cave paintings of Zodiark and Hydaelyn? The many ruins? Those are missing from the Source as a result of its own history leading to their destruction and/or loss.